I hate people who hate refugees...but I also oppose letting in refugees
It's a strange kind of musing, but I don't see how I can untangle this paradox.
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
inb4 OP is a snowflake
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
inb4 OP is a snowflake
Nobody really chooses to be a refugee. Even so, if you ever wind up in a situation where you're fleeing a war (or drought or famine), chances are you'd prefer to flee somewhere that works for your interests, rather than a place that doesn't. Some would call that being greedy, I'd say it's just human nature and common sense.
Everyone wants to improve their lives. If it's greedy to want to settle in a wealthy country over a poor one, logically then it's also greedy to take a high-paid job over a lower paid one. Yet we don't see many people calling for bank managers to be arrested and deported because they want more than they have.
Everyone wants to improve their lives. If it's greedy to want to settle in a wealthy country over a poor one, logically then it's also greedy to take a high-paid job over a lower paid one. Yet we don't see many people calling for bank managers to be arrested and deported because they want more than they have.
Original post by Dez
Nobody really chooses to be a refugee. Even so, if you ever wind up in a situation where you're fleeing a war (or drought or famine), chances are you'd prefer to flee somewhere that works for your interests, rather than a place that doesn't. Some would call that being greedy, I'd say it's just human nature and common sense.
Everyone wants to improve their lives. If it's greedy to want to settle in a wealthy country over a poor one, logically then it's also greedy to take a high-paid job over a lower paid one. Yet we don't see many people calling for bank managers to be arrested and deported because they want more than they have.
Everyone wants to improve their lives. If it's greedy to want to settle in a wealthy country over a poor one, logically then it's also greedy to take a high-paid job over a lower paid one. Yet we don't see many people calling for bank managers to be arrested and deported because they want more than they have.
It's not the act of them being here or being a different race to me which I find to be a problem.
It's the complete late of recognition at just how kind and accommodating Europe has been. Imagine if Europe was at war and I had to go to America, I wouldn't step off the boat and be all like preaching anti-American rhetoric or blaming them for whatever had happened.
(edited 8 years ago)
Well, the difference is that refugees are just people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, it makes absolutely no sense to hate them, they're human beings in need of help. The refugee crisis itself is much more political and something to have an opinion on in terms of available funds and space for people in the country.
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
It's not the act of them being here or being a different race to me which I find to be a problem.
It's the complete late of recognition at just how kind and accommodating Europe has been. Imagine if Europe was at war and I had to go to America, I wouldn't step off the boat and be all like preaching anti-American rhetoric or blaming them for whatever had happened.
It's the complete late of recognition at just how kind and accommodating Europe has been. Imagine if Europe was at war and I had to go to America, I wouldn't step off the boat and be all like preaching anti-American rhetoric or blaming them for whatever had happened.
Sadly there are people who will always be complete knobcheeses no matter what situation they find themselves in. They're generally in the minority though.
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
It's not the act of them being here or being a different race to me which I find to be a problem.
It's the complete late of recognition at just how kind and accommodating Europe has been. Imagine if Europe was at war and I had to go to America, I wouldn't step off the boat and be all like preaching anti-American rhetoric or blaming them for whatever had happened.
It's the complete late of recognition at just how kind and accommodating Europe has been. Imagine if Europe was at war and I had to go to America, I wouldn't step off the boat and be all like preaching anti-American rhetoric or blaming them for whatever had happened.
Maybe I am being naive but I don't think they way to go about teaching others about tolerance and respect for human rights is to ignore them, or exclude them from the benefits of that system.
I also don't think it does Western Society any favors to say how caring and tolerant it is in the same breath as telling a whole load of desperate people to piss off.
I do not hate refugees, however I don't think we should let a single one in. They will cause immense economic and cultural damage to this country, and we have no moral obligation to help them. The welfare state will cripple, they will put immense pressure on state schools and the NHS. We are already in mountains of debt with an enormous budget deficit - the refugees are largely uneducated and unskilled, and will not contribute an iota to our economy.
Look at what happened in Cologne - these people are savage and uncivilised. They will rape our daughters as we pay their rent and shopping bills. Not to mention the terrorist threat - ISIS have explicitly stated they will use this crisis to flood terrorists into the country.
What a stupid idea by phoney conservative Mr Cameron, changing his entire policy over a staged photo of a boy on a beach. A spineless man of no fixed principles.
Look at what happened in Cologne - these people are savage and uncivilised. They will rape our daughters as we pay their rent and shopping bills. Not to mention the terrorist threat - ISIS have explicitly stated they will use this crisis to flood terrorists into the country.
What a stupid idea by phoney conservative Mr Cameron, changing his entire policy over a staged photo of a boy on a beach. A spineless man of no fixed principles.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
This has been my experience as well. My problem is with the people who have little knowledge of the facts and still hold views, which are controversial. One can hold a view that is unconventional but at least be able to back it up with logic and facts.
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
I think this is the problem with the current set of refugees, from mainly Islamic countries. Many of them have never had the freedoms we have in the West and therefore experience a real culture clash. Some manage to integrate, whereas others don't.
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
It's a strange kind of musing, but I don't see how I can untangle this paradox.
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
inb4 OP is a snowflake
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
inb4 OP is a snowflake
So you're a hater.... But your kind of hate as socially acceptable as long as it's directed at white nationalists not African or Israeli nationalists.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Anti-anti
So you're a hater.... But your kind of hate as socially acceptable as long as it's directed at white nationalists not African or Israeli nationalists.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
An African nationalist has never told me they want to gas me.
Ive worked with a lot of Iranian/Syrians/levantines and they've been quality. We should just deport the chavs instead.
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
It's a strange kind of musing, but I don't see how I can untangle this paradox.
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
I suppose I can sympathise, partly. I've always been in favour of taking a limited number of refugees in from the refugee camps in the region surrounding Syria (the government's current position), but I'm now in favour of taking in a limited number from Europe, too. Nevertheless, my relative caution on this topic distinguishes me from people who are very much in favour of accepting large numbers of refugees. Despite this, I still think that those who are in favour of accepting large numbers of refugees are far more compassionate and decent, on average, than those who oppose accepting refugees.
See, for instance, one of the posts in this thread. The author claims that he/she doesn't hate refugees, yet says that we have no moral obligations whatsoever to them (because, apparently, the location in which you are born means that your suffering somehow matters less), calls them all "savage and uncivilised", and suggests that they are rapists.
My opposition to taking in large numbers of refugees is purely due to my concern for the refugees, and because I want to see Syrian society eventually rebuilt, meaning that I don't think that we should be taking in people who will eventually contribute to the rebuilding when the civil war ends. However, these concerns aside, I would happily accept a multitude of Syrian refugees to replace people, such as that poster, whose lack of moral concern for the refugees marks them out as being uncivilised and primitive.
Also, if you're concerned about the views of refugees, those views aren't going to go away if we don't accept these refugees. By contrast, those views are more likely to disappear if these people become part of societies where women, gays and those of other religions are able to hold the same rights as everyone else - I know many Muslims who hold liberal views in spite of their religion, because people are able to reason and empathise with others, regardless of their religion. Many people will ignore or explain away the conservative and intolerant parts of their religion, if these parts exist, and that's a good thing. It's a gradual thing, but it happened with Christianity, and it's slowly but surely happening with Islam.
Original post by Sequin Rugby
I do not hate refugees, however I don't think we should let a single one in. They will cause immense economic and cultural damage to this country, and we have no moral obligation to help them. The welfare state will cripple, they will put immense pressure on state schools and the NHS. We are already in mountains of debt with an enormous budget deficit - the refugees are largely uneducated and unskilled, and will not contribute an iota to our economy.
Look at what happened in Cologne - these people are savage and uncivislised. They will rape our daughters as we pay their rent and shopping bills. Not to mention the terrorist threat - ISIS have explicitly stated they will use this crisis to flood terrorists into the country.
What a stupid idea by phoney conservative Mr Cameron, changing his entire policy over a staged photo of a boy on a beach. A spineless man of no fixed principles.
Look at what happened in Cologne - these people are savage and uncivislised. They will rape our daughters as we pay their rent and shopping bills. Not to mention the terrorist threat - ISIS have explicitly stated they will use this crisis to flood terrorists into the country.
What a stupid idea by phoney conservative Mr Cameron, changing his entire policy over a staged photo of a boy on a beach. A spineless man of no fixed principles.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by viddy9
I would happily accept a multitude of Syrian refugees to replace people, such as that poster, whose lack of moral concern for the refugees marks them out as being uncivilised and primitive.
I saw a Facebook post recently about Serbian migrants who gang-raped a girl in Germany, I think. So many of the comments were along the lines of, "So sick of these refugees!" or "Don't let them into Europe!" Just shows how uneducated they are...what part of Syria is Serbia in again?
Original post by Feel Tha Bern
It's a strange kind of musing, but I don't see how I can untangle this paradox.
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
inb4 OP is a snowflake
Most people who hate refugees, immigrants and multiculturalism, are probably some of the most unpleasant, antisocial, angsty and just downright stupid people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. The average opposer of helping refugees is either a nasty middle class bore, who as a result of his unearned privilege, is totally unaware of his own mediocrity or a racist thug who has absolutely no prospects in life.
At the same time, given my experiences over the past probably, 6 years, I genuinely cannot help but feel that most, over 50% of the refugees who have entered Europe, have absolutely shocking views on how to treat gay people, Black people, Jewish people and women.
inb4 OP is a snowflake
Ah the struggles of being a liberal. So much reality to confront.
A couple of points. First, you do know that stereotyping people who hold different beliefs in the crude generalised way you have just done above, is in itself bigoted and illiberal, right?
Second, does it not ever occur to you that what matters is the intrinsic merit of a belief? Not who holds it?
I used to work with a lot of refugees when I was doing my Law conversion course in 2013-2014. There is a lot of information about our asylum system that never gets coverage in the media. A lot of people I spoke to were refused underground asylum seekers, which meant that they had no access to benefits whatsoever. They would rather go underground and sleep on the streets than accept a plane ticket to back to their own country because they were so scared about what would happen to them. Some things that usually get missed are:
1. A lot of people do not choose the country that they claim asylum in. The most common story that I heard from refugees is that something happened which resulted in them being very concerned that they will be persecuted (eg someone being outed for being gay in a particular country). The refugee or their family would pay an agent, who would smuggle them in a lorry or get them to an airport immediately. They would have no say over which country that they were sent to, so they had no idea on what the cultural norms are at that country. What might be considered racist and bigoted in England may be completely different than it is in France, for example.
2. You are immediately monitored when you put in an application for asylum. You must inform an official it at the first possible opportunity (eg. arriving at the dock when you have been travelling in a lorry for 3/4 days) and you will be immediately interviewed. This evidence will often be used as evidence when you put in your official claim for asylum. It is quite common for people to get disorientated because of how tired/emotional they are or there was an issue with their interpretor, which causes all sorts of problems later down the line.
3. If the Home Office agrees that you should be housed, then you will usually be sent across the other side of the country to a poor town that has a lot of cheap housing. These towns tend to be the more racist ones (eg. Middlesbrough). The scariest part of being an asylum seeker is signing on at the Home Office, which varies from every week to every month. An asylum seeker I spoke to told me that she could never eat the night before signing on because she was so frightened that they had made a decision about her application and were planning on detaining her when she signed on. She had been waiting for a decision for over 3 years.
4. Any crime you commit will be used against you when your application for asylum is considered. One crime is accepting employment, so when you see the headline 'jobless asylum seeker', it may be derogative but all they are doing is obeying the law. The government put through a Bill in 2014 to direct judges to consider that 'little weight' should be given to appeals from asylum seekers who have criminal convictions.
5. The Home Office's reasons for refusal letter are often very poorly written and do not have credible sources. I read several letters that referenced Wikipedia when stating facts about their home country. Chilling when you think that this could genuinely be a life or death decision.
6. The holes in the reasons for refusal letter often mean that an asylum seeker will appeal the decision. At that point, unless they are vulnerable or have children, benefits will be stopped. Asylum seekers will have to rely on friends for food and shelter, or a charity will have volunteers who will let them stay over in their homes until the outcome of their appeal is heard. The asylum seeker will still have to sign on at the Home Office despite not receiving any benefits, and if they choose not to go because of their fear of being deported then this will be used against them in their appeal.
tldr version: Being an asylum seeker is not like choosing to emigrate to another country. The decision will often not be up to the refugee and it will happen very quickly. If they are a criminal then this will go against them in their application for asylum. Given how long and flawed the process is, then I do not blame people for being disillusioned and not feeling particularly patriotic of the country who will "consider" keeping them in.
1. A lot of people do not choose the country that they claim asylum in. The most common story that I heard from refugees is that something happened which resulted in them being very concerned that they will be persecuted (eg someone being outed for being gay in a particular country). The refugee or their family would pay an agent, who would smuggle them in a lorry or get them to an airport immediately. They would have no say over which country that they were sent to, so they had no idea on what the cultural norms are at that country. What might be considered racist and bigoted in England may be completely different than it is in France, for example.
2. You are immediately monitored when you put in an application for asylum. You must inform an official it at the first possible opportunity (eg. arriving at the dock when you have been travelling in a lorry for 3/4 days) and you will be immediately interviewed. This evidence will often be used as evidence when you put in your official claim for asylum. It is quite common for people to get disorientated because of how tired/emotional they are or there was an issue with their interpretor, which causes all sorts of problems later down the line.
3. If the Home Office agrees that you should be housed, then you will usually be sent across the other side of the country to a poor town that has a lot of cheap housing. These towns tend to be the more racist ones (eg. Middlesbrough). The scariest part of being an asylum seeker is signing on at the Home Office, which varies from every week to every month. An asylum seeker I spoke to told me that she could never eat the night before signing on because she was so frightened that they had made a decision about her application and were planning on detaining her when she signed on. She had been waiting for a decision for over 3 years.
4. Any crime you commit will be used against you when your application for asylum is considered. One crime is accepting employment, so when you see the headline 'jobless asylum seeker', it may be derogative but all they are doing is obeying the law. The government put through a Bill in 2014 to direct judges to consider that 'little weight' should be given to appeals from asylum seekers who have criminal convictions.
5. The Home Office's reasons for refusal letter are often very poorly written and do not have credible sources. I read several letters that referenced Wikipedia when stating facts about their home country. Chilling when you think that this could genuinely be a life or death decision.
6. The holes in the reasons for refusal letter often mean that an asylum seeker will appeal the decision. At that point, unless they are vulnerable or have children, benefits will be stopped. Asylum seekers will have to rely on friends for food and shelter, or a charity will have volunteers who will let them stay over in their homes until the outcome of their appeal is heard. The asylum seeker will still have to sign on at the Home Office despite not receiving any benefits, and if they choose not to go because of their fear of being deported then this will be used against them in their appeal.
tldr version: Being an asylum seeker is not like choosing to emigrate to another country. The decision will often not be up to the refugee and it will happen very quickly. If they are a criminal then this will go against them in their application for asylum. Given how long and flawed the process is, then I do not blame people for being disillusioned and not feeling particularly patriotic of the country who will "consider" keeping them in.
I read an article about Japan selecting only 26 I think refugees. Countries should just be more selective about it. There are good refuges and bad ones. People should just select the good ones instead of just taking a high amount of refugees without even filtering them. No one chooses to be one and most be crappy being one but at the end of the day, it just seems smart to be selective about it.
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