Make America 'great again'.

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No, they can't. 'Values' is such an inherently ambiguous term. I want to see a society with more equality between the top and bottom, many on the right do not. Some on the left want to see total equality. All of them are different values.
I guess you could say 'ah but if we zoom out then we all want to help poor people' but then that negates the whole thing. If we have to zoom out so much that 'values' are so generic that 99% of people on Earth would agree to some point then how are they British and what's the point? 'British values' implies something inherently and distinctly British about them.

We all have our own set of values.
I want a more community based society, others want a more individualistic society - different values.

But they don't give any guidance if they are so hopelessly ambiguous that we can't get anything useful from them.

Western>European>British>New labour>Social Democrats>Socialists>Marxists>Individuals

I'm not restricting ideas, i'm just saying there are not an underlying set of values common to all or most British people, we all have very different values which are often not compatible with each other.

But is Gay marriage a 'British value'? Given only a few decades ago it was a crime to engage in homosexual acts? It's not a British value, it's a basic humanitarian value, a natural law philosophical value, but not a 'British value'.

There does need to be a certain amount of 'Britishness' for something to be a 'British value', otherwise they are just universal values so why call them British?

Original post by Bornblue

We all have our own set of values.
I want a more community based society, others want a more individualistic society - different values.

WOW THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I ****ING SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST.

While I am an individualist and believe everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs I do still think that a vast majority of people who are British hold certain values, those values are what i would consider British values, it doesn't matter how vague they are since they aren't meant to strictly dictate how you run your life but more to give guidance on how to solve issues.

As you get more strict on what values are you change what group you are talking about eg.

Western>European>British>New labour>Social Democrats>Socialists>Marxists>Individuals

As you go down this group the list of common values becomes larger and more specific but the group of people who hold those values becomes lower and lower until you reach individuals.

wow there you ****ing go, please READ before posting.

But they don't give any guidance if they are so hopelessly ambiguous that we can't get anything useful from them.

values aren't laws they are ideals and GUIDANCE, you don't have to live by them to be British.

okay so lets get things straight because you seem to be completely misunderstanding:
1)Values are not set in stone they can change
2)British values are based upon what British people think, British values do not dictate what British people think, you have it the wrong way around. You seem to think that to be British you need British values, this is not the case.

do you actually understand now what we are talking about? We aren't talking about culture, we aren't talking about tradition, we are talking about a measure of current British opinions.

But is Gay marriage a 'British value'? Given only a few decades ago it was a crime to engage in homosexual acts? It's not a British value, it's a basic humanitarian value, a natural law philosophical value, but not a 'British value'.

why can't you read? please read what i actually post. I am arguing the gay marriage is NOT a British value and then you go ahead and say "hey wait gay marriage isn't a British value" NO **** SHERLOCK THAT'S WHAT I ****ING SAID.

and you literally prove my ****ing point in that quote. as you increase the specificity of the group examined the type of values held become larger and more specific.....

There does need to be a certain amount of 'Britishness' for something to be a 'British value', otherwise they are just universal values so why call them British?

eurgh come on man, are you trolling?
A British value depends on what the majority of British people believe, IT DOES NOT ****ING MATTER if any other country also has the same values that we do, it stands to fact that British people hold those values and that is all we need to know.

A British value does not dictate who is British, the British dictate what is a British value.

Reply 61

username878267

Original post by TheNote

Are you illiterate? genuinely because you seem to be completely ignoring everything I'm saying.

lets get some **** straight:
British values are NOT concrete, they do NOT stay the same over time, they change. how hard is that for you to grasp?

WOW THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I ****ING SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST.

wow there you ****ing go, please READ before posting.

values aren't laws they are ideals and GUIDANCE, you don't have to live by them to be British.

okay so lets get things straight because you seem to be completely misunderstanding:
1)Values are not set in stone they can change
2)British values are based upon what British people think, British values do not dictate what British people think, you have it the wrong way around. You seem to think that to be British you need British values, this is not the case.

do you actually understand now what we are talking about? We aren't talking about culture, we aren't talking about tradition, we are talking about a measure of current British opinions.

why can't you read? please read what i actually post. I am arguing the gay marriage is NOT a British value and then you go ahead and say "hey wait gay marriage isn't a British value" NO **** SHERLOCK THAT'S WHAT I ****ING SAID.

and you literally prove my ****ing point in that quote. as you increase the specificity of the group examined the type of values held become larger and more specific.....

eurgh come on man, are you trolling?
A British value depends on what the majority of British people believe, IT DOES NOT ****ING MATTER if any other country also has the same values that we do, it stands to fact that British people hold those values and that is all we need to know.

A British value does not dictate who is British, the British dictate what is a British value.

Please stop being aggressive and swearing, it's quite unedifying and totally uncalled for.
I haven't ignored you, I just disagree.
I can read and I am literate, clearly. You seem to be mistaking disagreeing with your point for being illiterate. It's a needles personal attack when we are merely having a discussion and I have not once attacked you personally.

But anyway let me explain where I disagree.
You are making out that 'British values' are a philosophy akin to socialist or capitalist values, or liberal or authoritarian values or internationalist or nationalist values.
'British values' don't have any normative aspect to them. They are not a set of values distinct from any other.
Which is why I get infuriated when people say a certain proposals is contrary to British values, there is no such thing.
To call something a 'British' value implies that there is something inherently British about it, not that just lots of Brits believe in it. If a lot of Brits own a Volkswagen does that make it a British car? If lots of Brits own an Iphone, does that make it a British phone? No, clearly not. Yet you seem to be implying that a lot of Brits holding a value makes it a British value.

Values which are held by British people are not necessarily 'British values', just as cars which are owned by British people are not 'British cars'.

And here's the crux; to describe something as a 'value' implies a normative aspect to it. The fact lots of Brits hold a belief is not a grounds for normativity. We may have a mixture of capitalist and socialist values but that doesn't make them British, or Euorpean or even Western - it makes them capitalist and socialist. To call something a British value implies something more philosophical, more ideological and more deep rooted than lots of British people holding it. It requires the value itself must be normative, which is why socialism is a value, which is why individualism is a value. You have said British values change, but that proves my point, it's not that the values themselves change, it's that people adopt different values.

British people holding values does not make them British values, they are socialist or capitalist values held by British people. There is nothing normative about 'British' and as such it is not a value in and of itself.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 62

TheNote

Okay you still seem to be ignoring the fact that British values are a measure of current British opinion. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS.

it's in the damned name, British, hence it's what British people have, values, values that British people hold. THEREFORE, British values are not set in stone, nobody has ever written down what British values are.

The people you are talking about are conservatives....they with to CONSERVE the current status in terms of values, so they don't want the current values to change hence why they try to make proposals to not change those values or sometimes even bring back ex-values.

Depends how you define how to identify if an object has a nationality, is it where it's made? (which is the norm) or who holds the largest percentage of those phones or you could isolate the UK and say "which is the most popular phone, is there 1 phone that over 50% of the population own?" in which case you could call it British, you could also call it American or you could also call it western.

wow yet again you say "hey look these SPECIFIC values belong to this specific set of people, wow i wonder why that is so?
again i will have to explain this:
I am arguing that British values are values held by the majority of a group which in this case are British not that you have to hold British values to call yourself British.

you are comparing a set of values which are measured based upon a group's (British) values, to a group of people who have placed themselves into a group based upon their own values. They are NOT the same, you cannot compare a group of people who enter said group because of their values to a group who do not. They are fundamentally different and it is why British values are not specific.

I guess the question you have to answer is that do you:
a) have to hold British values to be British.
or
b) can you still be British without having British values.

You seem to be saying "this group of people have entirely different views why can't anyone tell me a specific set of values these people hold?". Then when people say a set of values the majority of those people hold you turn around and say "those aren't real values they are too vague and don't count" well tough **** mate, that's how the cookie crumbles when you look at a large group.

your argument keeps falling down because you are comparing apples to oranges.

Reply 63

HucktheForde

Original post by Luke Kostanjsek

He's playing to the US populus. They have an incredibly extreme sense of patriotism, it's not like Britain where we regularly take the piss out of ourselves. Self-deprecation isn't really understood over there.

Actually it is , at least on the democratic side. watch some stand up comedy like jon stewart and trevor noah then you know.

Reply 64

DanB1991

Original post by Aceadria

I agree with you on your other points as well but I think it's important to note that this was not the principle nor the most important cause of the industrial revolution.

To an extent it is depending on you're viewpoint on the importance of 18th societies influence on creating the industrial revolution in the late 18th to early 19th century. The unique British Middle Class values of the era can be seen as one of the main causes of the industrial revolution.

Original post by ServantOfMorgoth

Britain also had a part in the colonization and destruction of many countries economies today. Are British people proud about that too? Because that goes along with your nationalist patriotism!

In all fairness many countries such as those in Africa had collapsed internally due to infighting. Many South East Asian countries made horrific economic decisions all around the same time that Europeans were exploring those area's.

Take China and South Africa for example. Europe was horrified at the idea of a war with the massive Chinese empire. China tried flexing it's muscles and it's economy.... that in reality everyone involved soon found out they didn't have. Same with the Zulu's and earlier native incursions against the Boars, Natives picking fights of which they vastly over estimated their ability to win.

India and the American continent are slightly different. More as the Americans ignoring treaties the British had with Native Americans to protect their land and the Indians inviting the British to help them fight earlier oppressors.

But any other country in Western European shoes, or even specifically British shoes and they would of done the same. In fact many like Japan, China and some Muslim Countries tried just that. Add to the fact many countries invaded and colonised just didn't have strong economies. Take Africa for example, prior to the rush for africa (as in the interior), the main economic good that they sold to the rest of the world was slaves and had been for quite some time.

Again India is probably the main point of contention but it's horrifically more complex than "Britain messed things up". More as, "everyone involved in India for the last 1,000 odd years messed things up, with the British being the last".

Reply 65

username878267

Original post by TheNote

it's in the damned name, British, hence it's what British people have, values, values that British people hold. THEREFORE, British values are not set in stone, nobody has ever written down what British values are.

The people you are talking about are conservatives....they with to CONSERVE the current status in terms of values, so they don't want the current values to change hence why they try to make proposals to not change those values or sometimes even bring back ex-values.

Depends how you define how to identify if an object has a nationality, is it where it's made? (which is the norm) or who holds the largest percentage of those phones or you could isolate the UK and say "which is the most popular phone, is there 1 phone that over 50% of the population own?" in which case you could call it British, you could also call it American or you could also call it western.

wow yet again you say "hey look these SPECIFIC values belong to this specific set of people, wow i wonder why that is so?
again i will have to explain this:
I am arguing that British values are values held by the majority of a group which in this case are British not that you have to hold British values to call yourself British.

you are comparing a set of values which are measured based upon a group's (British) values, to a group of people who have placed themselves into a group based upon their own values. They are NOT the same, you cannot compare a group of people who enter said group because of their values to a group who do not. They are fundamentally different and it is why British values are not specific.

I guess the question you have to answer is that do you:
a) have to hold British values to be British.
or
b) can you still be British without having British values.

You seem to be saying "this group of people have entirely different views why can't anyone tell me a specific set of values these people hold?". Then when people say a set of values the majority of those people hold you turn around and say "those aren't real values they are too vague and don't count" well tough **** mate, that's how the cookie crumbles when you look at a large group.

your argument keeps falling down because you are comparing apples to oranges.

You're argument is flawed, largely because the underlying assumptions within it are illogical.
You're argument is based on two presumptions/maxims:
1.) That if lots of British people hold certain values they are 'British values' and
2.) That there is a general consensus.

Both underpinned by the idea that 'British values' have a normative element to them which they do not.

So let's deal with each in turn. For the first, you assert that if lots of British people hold a value then it is a 'British value'. That logic doesn't follow. If lots of British people have a Volkswagen that doesn't make it a 'British car'. If lots of British people have a Microsoft Computer, that doesn't make it a 'British computer'. You're argument implies that if lots of British people have something or hold something, that something is 'British' by definition. I digress.
No matter how many British people own a Volkswagen it is not a British car, it originates in Germany, it is German, not British. Iphones were made in America, they are American. It doesn't matter if every British person has one, it isn't British.

A value held by lots of British people is not necessarily a 'British value' as you are implying. It may be a socialist value or a capitalist value, but not a 'British one'. To describe it as a 'British' value implies something inherently British about it, not just that lots of Brits have it. Same with calling something a 'British' car.

Second the term 'value' necessarily implies a normative value, a belief, an ideological element. There is nothing normative about the term 'British', it is not comparable to socialism or humanitarianism or totalitarianism which are 'values'.
This is where your argument falls down. Lots of British people holding a value does not make it a 'British value'.

We don't have 'British' values. We have socialist values or capitalist values or humanitarian values - NOT 'BRITISH' VALUES.

Now you're second point is that there are values that we all agree on, quite simply there are not. If they are, list them. 'Gay marriage' is not 'a value'. Support for gay marriage may be based on humanitarian values which inherently support that but not the norm-free 'British' values.
A value must come from an ideology, 'British' isn't an ideology, humanitarianism is.
Thus there are no such thing as 'British values' it's an inherently contradictory statement. Values that British people have are not 'British values' just like cars that British people have do not necessarily become 'British cars'. The term 'values' necessitates some normative ideological element, something 'British' does not have.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 66

sandvika

Original post by Bornblue

This line more than anything annoys me. Possibly more so than most soundbites. When on earth was America ever 'great'? When it caused a global economic crash in the 20s which was a contributing factor to the world war? When in the 60s it still had segregation? When in the 90s over 40 million were uninsured for health care?

Not saying America doesn't have its good points but which era are trump and other republicans referring to when they want to make America great 'again'?

Not saying that other countries are great, they certainly aren't but the notion that there was a period when everything was just 'great' in any country, let alone America is nonsense.

there is still segregation in places like alabama
also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVz4VweMqFE

Reply 67

TheNote

Original post by Bornblue

.....

Your argument is flawed because it completely ignores the fact that we are arguing about two different definitions of British values.

I believe that they should be measured by whats popular and has been popular for a long time in Britain and you are arguing that there has to be some set in stone very specific values.

your arguments for that is that "well there are other groups that have values and they are specific"

A great example counter to this would be the difference in values that the GOP and democrats have had in the past and how they have changed in the USA, the GOP/democratic values are quite vague and only become specific after the primaries, look at the difference between Cruz and Trump or Hillary and Sanders. This is a great example of values changing as the people in that group also change.

Another good example is the change in labour from old labour to new labour, the parties values changed due tot he voters, ie their group members values had changed.

you are arguing that British values don't exist because they aren't specific, that simply isn't true, you can't put arbitrary limitations on things just to prove your point, it doesn't work like that.

The point is that values are distinguished by those in the group, individuals don't have values because they are part of the group.

You don't get socialist values by joining the socialist group, you join a socialist group because you have their values. and if the majority of that socialist group and incremental value change then the values of the socialist group will change.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 68

username878267

Original post by TheNote

From what I understand, your argument is essentially 'British values are values common to most British people'.
But what I am saying, is that is a logically inaccurate statement. For two reasons. Firstly as I've mentioned lots of British people doing something, doesn't make the practice British. It may be popular here, it may be widespread but it is not British. No matter how many people have a Volkswagen, it is not a British car. It originated in germany, is a German company and comes from there. It is not 'British.

It may be a car that most British people have but that does not make it a British car.

And here is the second point, there can be no such thing as a 'British' value. Because the term 'value' necessarily implies a normative element, a belief, an ideology. That's why you have socialist and humanitarian values, or individualist and capitalist values. They are normative, they are belief systems.

Your points about the GOP and Democrats support my point. There are no such thing as 'GOP' values. Rather they will be libertarian and capitalist values etc. Those are the values.

If you are trying to say that despite the linguistic contradiction, that 'British values' just mean values common to lots of brits then I still disagree.
I see a society with a huge range of values, a huge range of ideals and not a lot of agreement. So the idea that we have anything close to unifying values is nonsense. What are these unifying values? They must have a normative element.

Reply 69

TheNote

Original post by Bornblue

...

Those values would be the ones i have previously mentioned, which both have a history in our nation and are currently popular, hence normative.

Reply 70

username878267

Original post by TheNote

Those values would be the ones i have previously mentioned, which both have a history in our nation and are currently popular, hence normative.

No they are not normative because 'British' is not a belief system. Something being popular does not make it normative, nor does it make it a 'value'. A value must have an ideological aspect to it. 'British' is not ideological.