Help! Did something stupid on medical placement

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Hi
Thanks for your reply. I honestly dont know where they'll take this, it might go to health and conduct committee (most likely) who might then refer me to FTP, i've apologised to the supervisor just waiting to her back from the medical school now 😕 Thanks for the advice

As others have said, the result will be a slap on the wrist although that might well be a "formal" slap that will hang around for a few years, i.e. need to be declared to future employers. FtP issues don't really have any impact on selection for foundation/core/specialty training - they only hang around in case persistent dishonesty were to become a hallmark of your career. They think they will one day catch another Harold Shipman that way...

I was speaking to a doctor colleague of mine today who reminded me that we did much worse when at medical school. Obviously getting caught with your trousers down makes things a little more complicated.

Be upfront, honest, and learn from your mistake; you will be able to laugh about it at some point in the future.

Reply 21

Minerva

Original post by MonteCristo

FtP issues don't really have any impact on selection for foundation/core/specialty training - they only hang around in case persistent dishonesty were to become a hallmark of your career. They think they will one day catch another Harold Shipman that way...

Really? Some training schemes are so competitive you'd think that any sort of grubby mark on your record might get in the way. And, of course, at some point in the process any formal sanction would have to be declared.

I was speaking to a doctor colleague of mine today who reminded me that we did much worse when at medical school.

Indeed, but things have changed very substantially in recent years - not just because of Harold Shipman - and so behaviour considered acceptable even ten years ago now isn't. So, 'we did worse in our day' doesn't mean 'it was OK, it's just that people are more uptight now'.

Reply 22

MonteCristo

Minerva - I didn't graduate ten years ago. Being caught lying outright to a consultant would have led to trouble when I was a medical student as well but I don't think that many people could honestly say that they'd be happy for everything they'd ever done at medical school and afterwards to be laid bare in front of an FtP panel. That said, most people are careful that any omissions or half-truths could never be crystallised into a meaningful FtP case. That probably doesn't make them morally better people than the OP, though...

I haven't ever seen "do you have any FtP issues?" asked on an application form as part of a national selection process. Recent issues do usually have to be declared upfront to your employing trusts (e.g. and feature at ARCPs) but this usually takes place after posts have been allocated. It might be different if you were applying for a standalone non-training post at a hospital where they will make their own application form and could well ask about all of this upfront.

I'm happy to be corrected by anyone that has recently been through a selection process where FtP issues were declared in advance for consideration by the interview/selection panel.

Reply 23

Minerva

Original post by MonteCristo

- but probity is 'big' these days (rightly)

I haven't ever seen "do you have any FtP issues?" asked on an application form as part of a national selection process. Recent issues do usually have to be declared upfront to your employing trusts (e.g. and feature at ARCPs) but this usually takes place after posts have been allocated. It might be different if you were applying for a standalone non-training post at a hospital where they will make their own application form and could well ask about all of this upfront.

I'm happy to be corrected by anyone that has recently been through a selection process where FtP issues were declared in advance for consideration by the interview/selection panel.

i haven't seen an MTAS form (or whatever the current equivalent is now) for a while either, but I can't believe that the process doesn't pick up on these things at some point - and I have known at least one person get called in from the reserve list to take up a training place they didn't originally get allocated. While I never heard why that particular vacancy arose, iit is at least theoretically possible for someone who'd got through the main process to fall at the FtP fence subsequently, when the 'host' trust does their pre-employment checks.

Either way, the moral of the tale is, 'don't tell lies' :smile:

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 24

User947387

OP;

If I can offer my two pennies.

They will go for the "scaring you straight" approach, so a lot of ultimatums "if you EVER do this again....." and displaced father figure stern scowls. Play the humble servant; or for maximum manipulation:

"I just couldn't take letting down the people I look up to yet again (add a sir/ ma'am).

In Hagakura, a retainer who committed a mistake but who repented was infinitely more valuable: he would be so grateful for a reprieve, and humbled by the mercy extended; they would be less liable to be corrupted.

Expect sabre rattling to the exponential. And after the hot air has been blustered; not a damn thing of consequence will come to pass.

Reply 25

AnonymousPenguin

Original post by Minerva

- but probity is 'big' these days (rightly)

i haven't seen an MTAS form (or whatever the current equivalent is now) for a while either, but I can't believe that the process doesn't pick up on these things at some point - and I have known at least one person get called in from the reserve list to take up a training place they didn't originally get allocated. While I never heard why that particular vacancy arose, iit is at least theoretically possible for someone who'd got through the main process to fall at the FtP fence subsequently, when the 'host' trust does their pre-employment checks.

Either way, the moral of the tale is, 'don't tell lies' :smile:

It's much more likely someone applied for multiple training programmes and took a different post, which is the usual reason reserve lists exist.

The way national interviews are run I'd be very surprised if the panel ever looked at FtP. I don't think they see your application, it gets scored separately from the interview. There are no minus points on the person spec for varying levels of FtP assessment in the past.

Probity is important, but let's keep in mind that any punishment must be proportional to the infraction committed. Taking away someones ability to train and establish a career over an isolated momentary lapse of judgement would be deeply unfair and I just don't see the training system doing that. It would also have been challenged by now.

Reply 26

Minerva

Original post by AnonymousPenguin

It's much more likely someone applied for multiple training programmes and took a different post, which is the usual reason reserve lists exist.

I wasn't suggesting that in the case I quoted the vacancy arose because someone else had a FtP issue - the point I was making is that there is movement in the allocation of training places. Clearly this could happen for a number of reasons - problems with the pre-employment checks included.

The way national interviews are run I'd be very surprised if the panel ever looked at FtP. I don't think they see your application, it gets scored separately from the interview. There are no minus points on the person spec for varying levels of FtP assessment in the past.

As I said above, the point in the process at which FtP would certainly come into it is when the individual is completing the obligatory pre-employment checks with the host NHS trust.

Probity is important, but let's keep in mind that any punishment must be proportional to the infraction committed. Taking away someones ability to train and establish a career over an isolated momentary lapse of judgement would be deeply unfair and I just don't see the training system doing that. It would also have been challenged by now.

I'm not arguing that he should or will be thrown out - though we only have the OP's word for it that this is an isolated incident (actually, we have his word for it that attendance issues at least have happened before). I am saying however that it (the lying) is a serious matter and that the OP's supervisor is right to deal with it formally. For the OP's sake I hope the medical school concerned will take a pragmatic view - but I also hope that the OP really will have learned a very important lesson.

Reply 27

Anonymous #1

Hi everyone
Sorry for the late update, and thanks to everyone who read my post and responded

So last week my supervisor told me he would inform the medical shool ( this was on thursday), on monday when i started my assistantship i thought i would inform the medical school about the incident, partly because i assumed my supervisor would be busy and perhaps had forgotten to tell them, and also because the medical school would soon ask me why i had not been signed off.

The person i told said she would find out what the next step would be and that i could possibly be asked to do the placement again but that she wasnt sure.

On the same day the medical school contacted the supervisor asking him to fill out the sign off form, which he marked as unsatisfactory (understandably) due to the dishonesty and that prior to this my performance was fine.

Since then i have not heard back from the medical school and whether they will take any further steps. I'm hoping that since i have passed my exams and have not had issues with conduct before they will not take this further, but if not i am still awaiting an official response.

Thanks again for reading

Reply 28

Minerva

Original post by Anonymous

Thanks for the update - let's hope the medical school gets on with it and makes up its mind what to do soon. I appreciate that waiting for their decision is stressful, but now more than ever it's essential to absolutely toe the line, so I'm sure you won't even think about cutting any corners or ignoring any instructions you may be given.

Reply 29

Legit

They're not going to remove you, your a finalists. No chance.

That said, lying is serious. You will need to come up with a decent defence, eg external affairs in life have made it difficult over past few weeks etc. Tbh you need to think why you didn't attend and be honest about it

Everyone misses placements all the time, I allow myself a week off per rotation !

Reply 30

MonteCristo

Original post by Legit

That said, lying is serious. You will need to come up with a decent defence, eg external affairs in life have made it difficult over past few weeks etc. Tbh you need to think why you didn't attend and be honest about it

I don't think this is a sensible approach at all. I would be concerned about a student caught lying who then tried to explain their behaviour by scrabbling around for extraneous excuses. Your tack now should be to really think about why you lied (fear? embarrassment? put on the spot?) and then, if you are asked, provide an honest explanation. You need to show that you have taken responsibility for a bad decision, understand that it was wrong, and convince everyone that it is not indicative of your overall character.

Your mitigating factors should be that you owned up (I presume the conversation was verbal and not recorded...), apologised at the earliest opportunity, informed the medical school yourself (despite the very real possibility that your consultant would think twice or forget to inform them), and that no-one has previously had cause to question your probity (assuming this is true !!).

There must be precedent for students getting an "unsatisfactory" grade at the end of a clinical rotation. At my medical school, clinical finals included eight long clinical cases but students were exempt from the last four if their performance was "satisfactory" for all clinical rotations and the first four cases. The "punishment" for failing a clinical rotation would therefore have been a higher degree of scrutiny by the final exam process (i.e. twice the number of clinical cases). Your course handbook will almost certainly explain what happens in the event of an "unsatisfactory" clinical rotation. This will be separate to any FtP issue.

Reply 31

Anonymous #1

Meetings on monday guy 😕😥😁 (keep me in your prayers lol!)

Reply 32

InArduisFouette

For those saying it;s not a FtP issue - it is because of the dishonesty in claiming you had attended when you hadn't . Dishonesty is the kind of thing that will give even the most trivial issue the legs it needs to become a discip / FtP.

Expect to go through the motions of FtP with your med school

Get advice from your SU /BMA / defence provider

Realise that the FtP panel will be looking for contrition. insight , reflection and an understanding that your dishonesty may have put patients at risk and likely would cause problems for your colleagues and patients if you did it in a 'real' job.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 33

DexterM

Original post by Anonymous

Meetings on monday guy 😕😥😁 (keep me in your prayers lol!)

Good luck

Reply 34

tig ol bitties

You'll be fine, this happened to a friends of mine during our mental health rotation. Its an issue of probity which seems to be isolated, the maximum you'll get is a written formal warning so chill out. You'll be surprised how many folks have these sort of things so your not alone and it is not the biggest deal.

Think rationally, are they going to put you in front of a FTP panel for that- no. Are they going to put an investigation into fitness to practice at this time in your training - unlikely considering the time frame left until you leave.

Although one thing you should ask is regarding the TOI forms to your deanery you may or may not have completed. Ask someone from the medical school about whether you must state this incident and if in doubt state it anyway. Don't worry it wont stop you getting that consultant neurosurgery post 20 years down the line.

Reply 35

username2269391

Original post by Anonymous

Hi everyone
This is my first thread so would really appreciate some advice

Im currently a 5th year medical student and on placement. I have passed my finals so really happy about that but whilst on placement recently i did something really stupid and unprofessional.

I was supposed to go in one day but didnt and lied to my supervisor saying i went in. Anyway, he found out i lied about coming in, he now will not sign me off (understandably) and has said he will inform the medical school about my dishonesty.

I know its so silly of me to have lied and of course unprofessional but beyond upset now about having done this and extremely anxious about whats going to happen. If they exclude me for this as my conduct comes into question i dont know what i will do.

Any advice/help is appreciated.

Thanks for reading. 😔

ANXIETY ANXIETY, TALK ABOUT ANXIETY!

Two of my mates claim to have anxiety and they get away with murder because of it. One of em gets his cabs paid for by the university (he commutes and it's £600/week) and the other gets extension on all of his university assignments. Also they get free laptops when they need em

Reply 36

MonteCristo

Original post by JavaScriptMaster

ANXIETY ANXIETY, TALK ABOUT ANXIETY! Two of my mates claim to have anxiety and they get away with murder because of it. One of em gets his cabs paid for by the university (he commutes and it's £600/week) and the other gets extension on all of his university assignments. Also they get free laptops when they need em

This is a ridiculous idea. The OP doesn't need an extension or free taxis - he needs the FtP Investigator to accept that this was an isolated event that will never recur in the future. Claiming that his/her dishonesty was caused by an anxiety disorder would trigger a full FtP panel and quite possibly sanctions/limitations on practice.

Reply 37

Anonymous #2

Original post by MonteCristo

I agree it's a bad idea, but can't imagine having anxiety would result in limitations on practice? I imagine a small but significant number of medical students have anxiety or depression, don't think it tends to be a fitness to practice issue?

Reply 38

Anonymous #3

Original post by zippyRN

Realise that the FtP panel will be looking for contrition. insight , reflection and an understanding that your dishonesty may have put patients at risk and likely would cause problems for your colleagues and patients if you did it in a 'real' job.

There's no way that a panel would consider a medical student skipping a day of placement as a risk to patient safety. Not a chance. It's dishonest, and frankly OP deserves to be shot down for what he/she did, but it's not a patient safety issue in this instance.

Reply 39

MonteCristo

Original post by Anonymous

I don't think anxiety is an FtP issue by itself but anxiety to the extent that it might require a university to subsidise taxi fares? Anxiety that stops a medical student from fulfilling their clinical commitments and has a demonstrable effect on their probity? Yes, I think that would be the kind of health issue that would at least need consideration at FtP.

The dishonesty itself can be mitigated as a one off but that would be very difficult if the OP tried to sell it as the inevitable consequence of an ongoing mental health problem. FtP might seek some kind of formal psychiatric assessment in an attempt to understand how this could impact on the student's professional career and if anything needs to be in place to mitigate any future risk. The problem could then end up following the student into future rotations, e.g. if FtP required occupational health departments to be informed at employing trusts.