Was it rape? Long question but has been playing on my mind since
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Original post by chikane
Yes it should be reported how many other women will he do this to? You were drunk and he should never have slept with you cause surely you would have told him you were on your period and you would prefer it if it was done at your place instead. You can't remember how you got there did he drug your drink?
Original post by Mjcal1
If this isn't rape, I don't know what is. You were too intoxicated to consent AND you told him to stop. You should report him imho.
This surely goes both ways, to suggest otherwise would be sexist
Original post by Twinpeaks
That's a very silly thing to say. He held her wrists down, and her head against the pillow, and repeatedly told her to "shh" and refused to stop when she asked.
Whereas she didn't do anything. Her intoxication made her a victim, his intoxication made him an aggressor. Do you see the difference. Her state of intoxcation made her less able to fight back, his made him probably more aggressive due to lowered inhibition.
If you truly believe that he could have been a victim, then that means you also believe that a person accused of ABH/ GBH can vanquish all responsibility if they were drunk at the time. In fact, they can somehow become a victim too.
Whereas she didn't do anything. Her intoxication made her a victim, his intoxication made him an aggressor. Do you see the difference. Her state of intoxcation made her less able to fight back, his made him probably more aggressive due to lowered inhibition.
If you truly believe that he could have been a victim, then that means you also believe that a person accused of ABH/ GBH can vanquish all responsibility if they were drunk at the time. In fact, they can somehow become a victim too.
What?? This is fragments of what she remembers, I don't know how much sex you have but different thing does it for different people. Sounds like I'm stretching to justify his actions but there's just nowhere near enough known to say what went on.
As someone who has been falsely accused of serial assault, it can **** your life up, you become depressed and in my case I couldn't leave the house by myself for a long time in fear I might be accused of something again.
Original post by Twinpeaks
That's a very silly thing to say. He held her wrists down, and her head against the pillow, and repeatedly told her to "shh" and refused to stop when she asked.
Whereas she didn't do anything. Her intoxication made her a victim, his intoxication made him an aggressor. Do you see the difference. Her state of intoxcation made her less able to fight back, his made him probably more aggressive due to lowered inhibition.
If you truly believe that he could have been a victim, then that means you also believe that a person accused of ABH/ GBH can vanquish all responsibility if they were drunk at the time. In fact, they can somehow become a victim too.
Whereas she didn't do anything. Her intoxication made her a victim, his intoxication made him an aggressor. Do you see the difference. Her state of intoxcation made her less able to fight back, his made him probably more aggressive due to lowered inhibition.
If you truly believe that he could have been a victim, then that means you also believe that a person accused of ABH/ GBH can vanquish all responsibility if they were drunk at the time. In fact, they can somehow become a victim too.
I didn't say I believe he is a victim. But he himself could claim to be a victim of he was equally intoxicated and wasn't in the position to consent.
I merely asked as it can complicate things despite what OP claims to have happened.
It really is a matter of the courts to decide whether this rape claim will result in conviction. The guy however should be treated as innocent until proven guilty.
It's distressing for the real victim, yes, but it keeps things fair.
Sorry if this is distressing for OP but if he was intoxicated as well his actions, likewise hers would be somewhat skewed.
From what OP has said however I do think this is rape but it's a matter of talking to someone before OP possibly decides to report to the police.
Original post by CWE
- You went back to his house - suggests willingness to go to his house, nothing more
- You said you wanted to go home - not synonymous with wanting to stop, Going home implies, at the very least, stopping what you are doing in order to go home
- You flailed your arms around when in the act - was this accompanied with a verbal demand to stop ? If it was then it changes the situation entirely. If unaccompanied by verbal cues then this could easily be interpreted as part of the act. It was accompanied by a stated desire to go home
- You resisted in certain positions - again this is very often part of the act so unless accompanied by an explicit verbal demand to stop is not rape.
Without your added commentary it is not obvious from the events that you were not a willing participant. This does not mean the situation was not distressing and I would definitely advise counselling if it is affecting your mental health. I really hope everything works out for you!
I would like to add that if you suspect that your drink was spiked it changes the situation entirely and you should persue the matter further.
This post is my opinion and does not constitute legal advice.
- You went back to his house - suggests willingness to go to his house, nothing more
- You said you wanted to go home - not synonymous with wanting to stop, Going home implies, at the very least, stopping what you are doing in order to go home
- You flailed your arms around when in the act - was this accompanied with a verbal demand to stop ? If it was then it changes the situation entirely. If unaccompanied by verbal cues then this could easily be interpreted as part of the act. It was accompanied by a stated desire to go home
- You resisted in certain positions - again this is very often part of the act so unless accompanied by an explicit verbal demand to stop is not rape.
Without your added commentary it is not obvious from the events that you were not a willing participant. This does not mean the situation was not distressing and I would definitely advise counselling if it is affecting your mental health. I really hope everything works out for you!
I would like to add that if you suspect that your drink was spiked it changes the situation entirely and you should persue the matter further.
This post is my opinion and does not constitute legal advice.
See above.
It never ceases to amaze me that when in sexual situation, and only then, do adolescent males get very pedantic about what words and gestures might mean, and how they can exploit every tiny loophole, while simultaneously claiming that the words "no" and "go home" mean the very opposite of what they normally mean.
The reasonably careful man would have interpreted this as a drunk woman who did not want sex and who deserved some protection as a potential victim. It is rape.
I really hope that my next jury duty includes a case of some nasty person making these kinds of argument.
this is 100% rape, go to the police immediately.
All this being drunk, going to his house willingly or anything else is irrelevant. I am married, I voluntarily go home with my husband all the time. I am frequently drunk in his company. Indeed I am often naked. If he started having sex with me and I didn't want to and told him to stop and he refused to stop then he would have raped me - THIS IS THE LAW. Ignore all the rest of this *******s. It is totally not important and as for ruining his life, the sooner men realise that it is them that ruin their own lives by not recognising an individual's right to control over their own body, the better society will be. The amount of implicit victim blaming on this thread from some quarters is very demoralising.
A similar thing happened to me 20 years ago. I never reported it because I felt I was there voluntarily.It haunted me for years. I wonder frequently how many other women have been damaged as a consequence. At the very least speak with your GP or a counsellor.
A similar thing happened to me 20 years ago. I never reported it because I felt I was there voluntarily.It haunted me for years. I wonder frequently how many other women have been damaged as a consequence. At the very least speak with your GP or a counsellor.
Original post by Justmoll28
this is 100% rape, go to the police immediately.
Original post by Agedscholar
All this being drunk, going to his house willingly or anything else is irrelevant. I am married, I voluntarily go home with my husband all the time. I am frequently drunk in his company. Indeed I am often naked. If he started having sex with me and I didn't want to and told him to stop and he refused to stop then he would have raped me - THIS IS THE LAW. Ignore all the rest of this *******s. It is totally not important and as for ruining his life, the sooner men realise that it is them that ruin their own lives by not recognising an individual's right to control over their own body, the better society will be. The amount of implicit victim blaming on this thread from some quarters is very demoralising.
A similar thing happened to me 20 years ago. I never reported it because I felt I was there voluntarily.It haunted me for years. I wonder frequently how many other women have been damaged as a consequence. At the very least speak with your GP or a counsellor.
A similar thing happened to me 20 years ago. I never reported it because I felt I was there voluntarily.It haunted me for years. I wonder frequently how many other women have been damaged as a consequence. At the very least speak with your GP or a counsellor.
And vice versa, point here is she doesn't remember enough, what's stopping him saying she raped him if he was in a similar state to her?
The double standard is what's not okay. No means no.
Original post by Anonymous
what's stopping him saying she raped him if he was in a similar state to her?
His need to appear credible to a jury and not make a pathetic fool, as well as a rapist, of himself. Juries are populated by people who can generally see through such specious nonsense, you know.
Are you so ashamed of the point that you make that you won't avow it under your normal user name? Worried your usual credibility might be tainted? I'm not surprised.
(edited 8 years ago)
Most probably rape.
Issue with rape cases like this is that with the girl too drunk to consent they may not remember much about what actually happened. So really it could be a case that if a girl is very drunk, don't have sex with her regardless of what she says before hand.
But considering the girl had no intentions to have sex sober and did say when she was drunk stop multiple times I think it's rape for sure.
Issue with rape cases like this is that with the girl too drunk to consent they may not remember much about what actually happened. So really it could be a case that if a girl is very drunk, don't have sex with her regardless of what she says before hand.
But considering the girl had no intentions to have sex sober and did say when she was drunk stop multiple times I think it's rape for sure.
Original post by Good bloke
See above.
It never ceases to amaze me that when in sexual situation, and only then, do adolescent males get very pedantic about what words and gestures might mean, and how they can exploit every tiny loophole, while simultaneously claiming that the words "no" and "go home" mean the very opposite of what they normally mean.
The reasonably careful man would have interpreted this as a drunk woman who did not want sex and who deserved some protection as a potential victim. It is rape.
I really hope that my next jury duty includes a case of some nasty person making these kinds of argument.
It never ceases to amaze me that when in sexual situation, and only then, do adolescent males get very pedantic about what words and gestures might mean, and how they can exploit every tiny loophole, while simultaneously claiming that the words "no" and "go home" mean the very opposite of what they normally mean.
The reasonably careful man would have interpreted this as a drunk woman who did not want sex and who deserved some protection as a potential victim. It is rape.
I really hope that my next jury duty includes a case of some nasty person making these kinds of argument.
Firstly a forum is certainly no replacement for legal advice and if the OP is concerned she/he should seek an experts opinion.
I definitely don't appreciate the nasty and personal comments, especially when we both have the same goal of helping the original poster.
I never suggested that wanting go home in itself is sufficient to show a desire to have sex but it does show that this was a willing decision and not a forced abduction. It also gives context to the rest of the events and enables us to see the mental picture being formed in the alleged perpetrators mind. Going home with a member of the opposite sex very often leads to sexual relations (or rather indicates a desire to have sexual relations) and it is naive to assume otherwise.
Your other argument is very flawed. If the individual has got to that stage (gone home with and engaged in the assumed activities leading up to sex?) and has the capacity to speak but chooses not to say that she/he does not want to continue having sex then there is no way the other individual can be expected to know this. The going home comments could easily have been concern about the logistics of getting home. Again I want to stress that according to the events described here there was every opportunity to verbally indicate that sex was not desired but this was never done. Taking the whole evening in context its unreasonable to assume that the alleged perpetrator knew the act was unwanted.
@ the OP: Don't want this to seem too clinical and legal and definitely don't want you to feel as if my view is that you've done something wrong. From the info provided here I just don't think there is a fair legal case for the accusation. Feel free to message me if you want to talk about anything at all
Original post by CWE
I definitely don't appreciate the nasty and personal comments, especially when we both have the same goal of helping the original poster.
...
Your other argument is very flawed. If the individual has got to that stage (gone home with and engaged in the assumed activities leading up to sex?) and has the capacity to speak but chooses not to say that she/he does not want to continue having sex then there is no way the other individual can be expected to know this.
I definitely don't appreciate the nasty and personal comments, especially when we both have the same goal of helping the original poster.
...
Your other argument is very flawed. If the individual has got to that stage (gone home with and engaged in the assumed activities leading up to sex?) and has the capacity to speak but chooses not to say that she/he does not want to continue having sex then there is no way the other individual can be expected to know this.
I made no comments about you, personal or otherwise.
People are expected to read body language, gestures and listen to words. It would be unreasonable to assume that someone pushing someone else off and saying they want to go home is, in fact, playing some hitherto unplayed sexual game. Even adolescents are expected to use common sense in important situations. To say there is no way the boy could know is, frankly, specious and ridiculous.
Original post by Good bloke
Are you so ashamed of the point that you make that you won't avow it under your normal user name? Worried your usual credibility might be tainted? I'm not surprised.
Credibility on the Internet? Sorry I'm not a white Knight. I realise my opinion is not the most popular in this case. If the law has been broken one should be punished. Being punished for something you haven't done is as bad as not punishing someone who has done wrong.
It's more important to establish the truth than to shift guilt. Apologies to OP, this undoubtedly has its toll.
It's just not fair to be the hunted solely because of your gender. None of us knows what happened and making conclusions in this case is wrong because the consequence to both people involved won't be light
Original post by Anonymous
This surely goes both ways, to suggest otherwise would be sexist
I would honestly agree if they were both just drunk and that's it but the way it's describes sound like he didn't care eventhough she didn't want to have sex.
P.s I don't give a sh*t if I'm sexist to my own gender lol (sounds weird but I'm being honest)
Original post by Good bloke
I made no comments about you, personal or otherwise.
People are expected to read body language, gestures and listen to words. It would be unreasonable to assume that someone pushing someone else off and saying they want to go home is, in fact, playing some hitherto unplayed sexual game. Even adolescents are expected to use common sense in important situations. To say there is no way the boy could know is, frankly, specious and ridiculous.
People are expected to read body language, gestures and listen to words. It would be unreasonable to assume that someone pushing someone else off and saying they want to go home is, in fact, playing some hitherto unplayed sexual game. Even adolescents are expected to use common sense in important situations. To say there is no way the boy could know is, frankly, specious and ridiculous.
This! People are expected to read body language. If you're in bed making out with a girl, how often do you ask, I'd like to have sex it's okay?. If someone is hesitant the humane thing to do is talk and ask if they're okay etc. If he's as drunk as her where he doesn't remember how he has ended up there? Look at it from both perspectives is all I'm saying. I mean he could be a violent serial rapist drugging women. I don't know, neither do you
Original post by Anonymous
It's just not fair to be the hunted solely because of your gender. None of us knows what happened and making conclusions in this case is wrong because the consequence to both people involved won't be light
It's just not fair to be the hunted solely because of your gender. None of us knows what happened and making conclusions in this case is wrong because the consequence to both people involved won't be light
it is clear it happened a long time ago and nobody is being pursued. The OP asked for answers based on the facts as told by her.
Nobody is being hunted based on their gender, anyway. It would be on the basis of a rape allegation.
As I said earlier, it never ceases to amaze me how pedantic of tiny points of detail adolescents get when it comes to sexual crime (possible intent of flapping about, going back to male's house), while missing the big picture in the form of pushing off and wanting to go home. Just how inarticulate and incapable of understanding are our young males?
Original post by Mjcal1
I would honestly agree if they were both just drunk and that's it but the way it's describes sound like he didn't care eventhough she didn't want to have sex.
P.s I don't give a sh*t if I'm sexist to my own gender lol (sounds weird but I'm being honest)
P.s I don't give a sh*t if I'm sexist to my own gender lol (sounds weird but I'm being honest)
Exactly! Wrong is wrong regardless of gender, but majority here assumes one person is wrong because of gender.
Think I'm done here now. Lol
Original post by Good bloke
I made no comments about you, personal or otherwise.
People are expected to read body language, gestures and listen to words. It would be unreasonable to assume that someone pushing someone else off and saying they want to go home is, in fact, playing some hitherto unplayed sexual game. Even adolescents are expected to use common sense in important situations. To say there is no way the boy could know is, frankly, specious and ridiculous.
People are expected to read body language, gestures and listen to words. It would be unreasonable to assume that someone pushing someone else off and saying they want to go home is, in fact, playing some hitherto unplayed sexual game. Even adolescents are expected to use common sense in important situations. To say there is no way the boy could know is, frankly, specious and ridiculous.
Except that you're misrepresenting what actually happened. According to the original poster she/he did not simultaneouslly push the man away and state that she/he wanted to go home - which I agree would have been a clear indication to stop. Rather the two events you described happened seperately and as I've already explained in earlier posts it is entirely reasonable for both not be interpreted as a lack of willingness, especially in light of the context. A flailing of the arms is decidedly different to concertedly pushing someone off.
As already mentioned I think that context is very important. If two people reach that stage and both parties have the ability to tell the other to desist but choose not to how can the onus possibly be on the alleged perpetrator to read the alleged victims mind?
I think your approach to the matter is wrong and I advise you take a step back and see the issue from an unbiased observers perspective with the whole context in mind. In my view the events described here definitely do not prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed, which I'm sure you are aware is nessecary for a conviction.
Again, everyone on here is just expressing an opinion and expert advice is really the only way forward.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by CWE
Except that you're misrepresenting what actually happened. According to the original poster she/he did not simultaneouslly push the man away and state that she/he wanted to go home - which I agree would have been a clear indication to stop. Rather the two events you described happened seperately and as I've already explained in earlier posts it is entirely reasonable for both not be interpreted as a lack of willingness, especially in light of the context. A flailing of the arms is decidedly different to concertedly pushing someone off.
As already mentioned I think that context is very important. If two people reach that stage and both parties have the ability to tell the other to desist but choose not to how can the onus possibly be on the alleged perpetrator to read the alleged victims mind?
I think your approach to the matter is wrong and I advise you take a step back and see the issue from an unbiased observers perspective with the whole context in mind.
As already mentioned I think that context is very important. If two people reach that stage and both parties have the ability to tell the other to desist but choose not to how can the onus possibly be on the alleged perpetrator to read the alleged victims mind?
I think your approach to the matter is wrong and I advise you take a step back and see the issue from an unbiased observers perspective with the whole context in mind.
I took a step back and placed myself into the jury, with the OP as the evidence. The push and the "go home" do not need to be simultaneous to convey the meaning in the context of someone who is too drunk to assert herself effectively, which the male owes a duty to be careful of. If he is himself too drunk to notice she doesn't want sex it makes no difference, obviously.
Are lots of young men incapable of forming relationships and having sex without getting drunk? Too much alcohol and sex are very poor bedfellows in most respects.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Good bloke
I took a step back and placed myself into the jury, with the OP as the evidence. The push and the "go home" do not need to be simultaneous to convey the meaning in the context of someone who is too drunk to assert herself effectively, which the male owes a duty to be careful of. If he is himself too drunk to notice she doesn't want sex it makes no difference, obviously.
Are lots of young men incapable of forming relationships and having sex without getting drunk? Too much alcohol and sex are very poor bedfellows in most respects.
Are lots of young men incapable of forming relationships and having sex without getting drunk? Too much alcohol and sex are very poor bedfellows in most respects.
To your 2nd part /lifestyle choices, there you go with men thing again. She is living the same lifestyle, similar one to what I live. Doesn't excuse her rights to be compromised in anyway but since we all live in a shitty word and every often we can come across someone broken. Best I can advice is to perhaps have some measures in place to make her self less susceptible to broken individuals. I also remember her saying she was with a friend at a point? She's probably more qualified to tell her what happened?
In answers to OPs title, not enough to go by for me
Original post by Anonymous
It is impossible to tell, if you were that drunk to not remember so much, it'd be extremely unfair to ruin someone's life. You simply don't have enough here. Some aspects sound terribly rape like.
Nonetheless, it's easy to regret something you did drunk but doesn't change that you did it, and doesn't make it okay to put it all on the person, I've done terrible things drunk that i would have never done sober.
How did you end up at his? Cos you said you left with a friend right and next you remembered you were at his so maybe speak to your friend about what happened.
Rape is serious and if he has done something like that he shouldn't get away with it but you need to be super sure of what happened rather than wanting to justify a regrettable drunken action
Nonetheless, it's easy to regret something you did drunk but doesn't change that you did it, and doesn't make it okay to put it all on the person, I've done terrible things drunk that i would have never done sober.
How did you end up at his? Cos you said you left with a friend right and next you remembered you were at his so maybe speak to your friend about what happened.
Rape is serious and if he has done something like that he shouldn't get away with it but you need to be super sure of what happened rather than wanting to justify a regrettable drunken action
Original post by Anonymous
This surely goes both ways, to suggest otherwise would be sexist
She tried pushing him away and told him she wanted to go home but he wasn't listening to her at all and carried on.
Also if she woke up to find him having sex with her how could she consent to this.
Its like if a woman goes down on a guy while he has passed out that is assault as he has not consented to it.
