Was it rape? Long question but has been playing on my mind since
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Original post by CWE
Except that you're misrepresenting what actually happened. According to the original poster she/he did not simultaneouslly push the man away and state that she/he wanted to go home - which I agree would have been a clear indication to stop. Rather the two events you described happened seperately and as I've already explained in earlier posts it is entirely reasonable for both not be interpreted as a lack of willingness, especially in light of the context. A flailing of the arms is decidedly different to concertedly pushing someone off.
As already mentioned I think that context is very important. If two people reach that stage and both parties have the ability to tell the other to desist but choose not to how can the onus possibly be on the alleged perpetrator to read the alleged victims mind?
I think your approach to the matter is wrong and I advise you take a step back and see the issue from an unbiased observers perspective with the whole context in mind. In my view the events described here definitely do not prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed, which I'm sure you are aware is nessecary for a conviction.
Again, everyone on here is just expressing an opinion and expert advice is really the only way forward.
As already mentioned I think that context is very important. If two people reach that stage and both parties have the ability to tell the other to desist but choose not to how can the onus possibly be on the alleged perpetrator to read the alleged victims mind?
I think your approach to the matter is wrong and I advise you take a step back and see the issue from an unbiased observers perspective with the whole context in mind. In my view the events described here definitely do not prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed, which I'm sure you are aware is nessecary for a conviction.
Again, everyone on here is just expressing an opinion and expert advice is really the only way forward.
You clearly have absolutely no knowledge on this matter.
Since when is it a legal requirement for the victim of rape to have had to simultaneously pushed the man away, whilst also shouting stop? Are you actually saying that if a woman shouts no, that is not sufficient. Or if a woman pushes the man away, that is not sufficient. Only when these two actions are done simultaneously, is it sufficient for a legal case of rape?
You clearly are utterly clueless on this matter. Who the hell do you think you are, to advise an actual rape victim on something which you know absolutely nothing about? You do realise that your actions have consequences, right? You could well have persuaded the OP not to see the police (it often does not take much persuasion) and then the man could have repeated his behaviour again and raped another victim.
Do us all a favour and take your completely unfounded, juvenile opinion elsewhere. It is not wanted, and most certainly not needed.
There's a difference between rape, and you regretting your decision because you're not enjoying it or something halfway through.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Original post by ComputerMaths97
There's a difference between rape, and you regretting your decision because you're not enjoying it or something halfway through.
Just saying.
Just saying.
If you express in any way that you don't like what's happening and want to stop, and the other person doesn't then it is rape, regardless of what has already occurred.
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Original post by Katty3
If you express in any way that you don't like what's happening and want to stop, and the other person doesn't then it is rape, regardless of what has already occurred.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
So if someone pays you £5, then as you're halfway through spending it, they want it back as they regret their choice, you're a theif if you don't pay them £5?
No, you can't punish someone for being on the other end of a regret, so that's a useless excuse. Next one?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ComputerMaths97
There's a difference between rape, and you regretting your decision because you're not enjoying it or something halfway through.
Just saying.
Just saying.
You can deny content before and withdraw consent during the act, so actually there is no difference, there is a difference between rape and regretting it later
Original post by ComputerMaths97
So if someone pays you £5, then as you're halfway through spending it, they want it back as they regret their choice, you're a theif if you don't pay them £5?
No, you can't punish someone for being on the other end of a regret, so that's a useless excuse. Next one?
No, you can't punish someone for being on the other end of a regret, so that's a useless excuse. Next one?
In this situation the act that is regretted is giving the £5, the person giving the money can decide not to or while in the process of handing it over change their mind, this scenario would be after it has occurred
Original post by Twinpeaks
Well the final bit is irrational. I think you're lying sweetheart.
You clearly are ignorant about the trauma some people go through if wrongly accused of rape. It's got the same stigma as being accused of child abuse and all those type of disgusting crimes no one would want to admit to.
It can ruin lives as even if they are proven innocent the way people treat some people afterwards is completely changed.
It really comes down to the matter of if she consented - it appears not
But also, if he himself knew she didn't consent - if drunk, possibly not
Doesn't matter how she tried to fight him off, many can claim they'll do their up most to fight off a rapist, and expect rape victims to, but until it actually happens you don't know how you'll actually react in such a situation.
OP I'd advice you to talk to a help line or an expert before taking things further.
But also, if he himself knew she didn't consent - if drunk, possibly not
Doesn't matter how she tried to fight him off, many can claim they'll do their up most to fight off a rapist, and expect rape victims to, but until it actually happens you don't know how you'll actually react in such a situation.
OP I'd advice you to talk to a help line or an expert before taking things further.
Original post by Anonymous
I have tried to compress the details (putting all I can remember from the night) in your opinion, is my story rape?- I was drunk and at the bar and saw a uni friend of mine so started talking about him going home with my friend, the next I remember from this was being at his house in his room actually having Sex (I can't even remember getting inside the house/ taxi this is the extend of drunk that I was)- I stopped and told him I wanted to go home during sex at least 4 times and he'd stop me telling me it was a silly idea, it was dark, I wouldn't know my way home, I was being stupid etc but at the time drunk me thought he was probably right and he was only looking out for me so after each time stopping we would continue having sex- i remember me trying to push him off me and was kind of flapping my arms about to stop having sex with him but he had my wrists and held them down telling me to 'shhh' although it seemed more like he was calming me down - he also held my head to the pillow when we were doing doggy style (sorry for the graphic info) I tried resisting but couldn't so waited until we could change position but only once- I was on my period and had my tampon in when it happened and period sex is not in my sober thoughts AT ALL!!! I know regardless of how drunk I was I would of told him this and most likely the fact I didn't want sex (and if I did it would of took place at my flat, which it did not!)- The main issue is when we were having sex, proper sex I kind of went along with it and from what I remember it went on for 30mins plus and I stayed the night?? So I am more annoyed/ disgusted at myself for being to drunk to do anything or even leave and go home and giving him mixed messages the whole time! I know I should speak to a professional, but I'm unsure whether I'm just being over dramatic and would be wasting their time or not.
Dear OP,
I am truly sorry to hear what happened. I have had some instance of sex myself where I felt pressured into the act but consented, and regretted it later. Some posters have talked about it: sometimes we give our consent to the act even though we may not entirely feel free to do so.
It is true that one can withdraw permission at any time. What can't be done is to withdraw permission after the act is over. If you consented when it happened, that's consent and changing your mind later doesn't make that different, otherwise a lot of angry people would have their partners convicted of rape. However this is an entirely different case from yours.
A basic university law case study that is similar to yours is R v Bree, where a guy had sex with a very drunk girl. The thing is, she had gaps in her memory that to her felt like unconsciousness- but to the guy she was awake, though drunk. It then turned into 'her word v his word'. She couldn't deny that she was drunk and possibly consented to have sex with him when drunk, although during her lucid moments she tried to stop him. The court held that if she consented when drunk, 'drunken consent is still consent', in that one cannot deny consent was given in a situation where alcohol may have loosened your inhibitions. The guy held that she was awake through the whole thing and had consented, through actions if not words.
A lot of your case thus revolves on how clearly you said no- you were clearly saying NO! in your mind, but that might not be enough in the law. It's not a crime to have sex drunk, and the guy is not a mind reader. Morally wrong is not legally wrong. That said, if you said four times that you wanted to go home that does indicate rather strongly that you did not want sex.
I would very, very strongly advise getting legal advice- there are many centres for sexual assault that will help you, and possibly allow you to communicate anonymously with them due to the sensitivity of the issue. Sadly it is normal for women to feel disgusted with themselves and self-blame when things like this happen- but it is NOT your fault for being drunk. It was NOT your fault for being unable to say no. You did NOT consent just because you didn't run screaming out of the house once the sex was over. It is true you stayed the night- but that doesn't mean anything other than that you were too drunk,or even too traumatised from the sex to leave safely. Abused women often stay years with their abuser- it doesn't mean they want to be abused. When things like this happen it often creates a sense of dislocation and powerlessness, and we keep telling ourselves "But I should have said no! Now no one will believe me." The world is very complex and sadly, no isn't always no, but not saying no doesn't mean yes.
Don't blame yourself OP. Get help. You don't have to think about bringing a police case yet if you're not interested- I'd suggest seeking help first and coming to terms with your feelings about it. Ask for advice as to how much time you have before the time for prosecution lapses- for some offences, if a certain period of time has passed since the offence has been committed the victim is barred from bringing action. Ultimately if you want to bring an action- good luck. No one can say that you will win 100%, but you certainly have a case that you can bring against him if you really want to.
Original post by tcameron
It really comes down to the matter of if she consented - it appears not
But also, if he himself knew she didn't consent - if drunk, possibly not
Doesn't matter how she tried to fight him off, many can claim they'll do their up most to fight off a rapist, and expect rape victims to, but until it actually happens you don't know how you'll actually react in such a situation.
OP I'd advice you to talk to a help line or an expert before taking things further.
But also, if he himself knew she didn't consent - if drunk, possibly not
Doesn't matter how she tried to fight him off, many can claim they'll do their up most to fight off a rapist, and expect rape victims to, but until it actually happens you don't know how you'll actually react in such a situation.
OP I'd advice you to talk to a help line or an expert before taking things further.
Yes OP talk to an expert, the police. You do know only 5-6% of reported rapes in the UK lead to conviction? Why on earth are you acting as if a reported rape equates to a convicted rapist?
Your posts are concerning mate, I suggest you leave this thread you aren't doing yourself any favours, constantly trying to dissuade a rape victim from coming forward.
Bit concerning on your behalf, what's your motive? The majority of men on this thread are disgusted by the mans behaviour, just like the rest of the women. But you have this strange bias to see the good in the man, and the bad in the woman.
Very concerning. I've studied forensic psychology, and the sort of distorted cognitions that go alongside sexual abusers, and you're ticking some boxes sweetheart. All these justifications...
Check, check, check.
Original post by Twinpeaks
Yes OP talk to an expert, the police. You do know only 5-6% of reported rapes in the UK lead to conviction? Why on earth are you acting as if a reported rape equates to a convicted rapist?
Your posts are concerning mate, I suggest you leave this thread you aren't doing yourself any favours, constantly trying to dissuade a rape victim from coming forward.
Bit concerning on your behalf, what's your motive? The majority of men on this thread are disgusted by the mans behaviour, just like the rest of the women. But you have this strange bias to see the good in the man, and the bad in the woman.
Very concerning. I've studied forensic psychology, and the sort of distorted cognitions that go alongside sexual abusers, and you're ticking some boxes sweetheart. All these justifications...
Check, check, check.
Your posts are concerning mate, I suggest you leave this thread you aren't doing yourself any favours, constantly trying to dissuade a rape victim from coming forward.
Bit concerning on your behalf, what's your motive? The majority of men on this thread are disgusted by the mans behaviour, just like the rest of the women. But you have this strange bias to see the good in the man, and the bad in the woman.
Very concerning. I've studied forensic psychology, and the sort of distorted cognitions that go alongside sexual abusers, and you're ticking some boxes sweetheart. All these justifications...
Check, check, check.
Hahaha seriously? First of all you know nothing about me. So your claims of me being a sexual abuser is invalid and ultimately innacurate. I don't care if you studied forensic science, youre in no position to make assumptions over a few posts from a complete stranger.
I am FEMALE btw before you jump into conclusions.
Not once did I claim to see the good in men and bad in women, you thinking that I am referring to only women being raped and it having to be by a man is slightly worrying - but dw I won't accuse you of being a sexual abuser.
I'm cautious because the claims while drunk may be skewed and the damage it may do to somebody's life of wrongly accused is so great.
She can report it if she wants whose going to stop her, but what I said about it coming down to him knowing she couldn't consent it true, and will be considered in a court of law.
Original post by CWE
The whole situation does make me uneasy
That's probably the most sensible thing you've said.
You're aware that for this to be a crime the accused must have beyond all reasonable doubt not had a reasonable belief in consent which I do not think can be proven to be the case based on the evidence provided thus far.
If it gets as far as being reported to the police - although I hope and trust the OP gets some support, it may not - it would be probably be down to his answers when interviewed under caution.
For the OPs benefit I think you can agree that in a complicated situation such as this advice on here is no substitute for a legal experts advice.
I would say her primary need is other support. She can then decide whether or not to report it to the police.
Original post by Blyat
If he's drunk, he still has agency and is totally in control of his actions
No, he may not be.
What anyone accused of a crime doesn't get to do is say 'Yes, I did that, but it's ok - I had gotten myself drunk, so I thought it was a good idea at the time' and get let off. The reasons for that should be screamingly obvious.
Original post by joecphillips
Morally yes.
Legally yes.
Will it lead to a conviction based on what I have read yes however rape is hard to prove so there is always a chance it would end not guilty.
Legally yes.
Will it lead to a conviction based on what I have read yes however rape is hard to prove so there is always a chance it would end not guilty.
well **** you.
I hope this happens to you and someone call you a liar.
Being arrested for **** I didn't do based on my skin colour and where i lived was not very fking rational, sorry if i become a little irrational after that
Original post by ComputerMaths97
So if someone pays you £5, then as you're halfway through spending it, they want it back as they regret their choice, you're a theif if you don't pay them £5?
No, you can't punish someone for being on the other end of a regret, so that's a useless excuse. Next one?
No, you can't punish someone for being on the other end of a regret, so that's a useless excuse. Next one?
This!!
Original post by Anonymous
well **** you.
I hope this happens to you and someone call you a liar.
Being arrested for **** I didn't do based on my skin colour and where i lived was not very fking rational, sorry if i become a little irrational after that
I hope this happens to you and someone call you a liar.
Being arrested for **** I didn't do based on my skin colour and where i lived was not very fking rational, sorry if i become a little irrational after that
Was this meant to be aimed at me?
I was commenting as if the information is correct, which it may be I do not know.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Twinpeaks
Well the final bit is irrational. I think you're lying sweetheart.
well **** you.
I hope this happens to you and someone call you a liar.
Being arrested for **** I didn't do based on my skin colour and where i lived was not very fking rational, sorry if i become a little irrational after that.
Take your hatred of men elsewhere
Original post by Anonymous
This!!
That situation is different to what was described.
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