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Women Protection Bill protested by religious leaders as 'un-Islamic'

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Original post by blah3210
The UDHR is an arbitrary, man-made declaration that cannot supersede the Qur'an and the Sunnah - the rights conferred therein are considered by Muslims to have a divine source.


Those are the key words -- what Muslims consider to be the truth is, frankly, meaningless to what is actually the case. Human rights in the modern world are defined by the UDHR, not by the Koran (which most non-Muslims would say, and with good evidence, is equally arbitrary and man-made) or the Sunnah. Therefore, any Muslim woman who is aware of her rights under the UDHR is either ignorant of or in denial of the fact that Islam is incompatible with these or (in a small number of cases) actively waives her rights; my earlier point stands.

As for the rights of women in Islam, it is generally recognised by Islamic scholars that the rights of women are more numerous than the rights of men in shari'ah.


This is demonstrably false.

Critics of Islam like to focus on verse 4:34 (the "wife-beating" verse)


That's one among many, yes. Hardly something that we 'focus' on.

but such criticisms are misinformed.


What a surprise that you think this. :rolleyes:



Thanks, but I'm already educated when it comes to these matters, although I'm well aware of the tendency among Muslims to assume that anybody who reaches a different conclusion to them obviously didn't examine the relevant documents in the 'correct' manner (and, of course, the arbiter of what is correct is always a Muslim apologist).

Even if I did know nothing about this, I certainly wouldn't use an obviously biased source like the one you've supplied to educate myself. :tongue:
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Hydeman
Those are the key words -- what Muslims consider to be the truth is, frankly, meaningless to what is actually the case. Human rights in the modern world are defined by the UDHR, not by the Koran (which most non-Muslims would say, and with good evidence, is equally arbitrary and man-made) or the Sunnah. Therefore, any Muslim woman who is aware of her rights under the UDHR is either ignorant of or in denial of the fact that Islam is incompatible with these or (in a small number of cases) actively waives her rights; my earlier point stands.


It's not meaningless because we're talking about Muslims, their rights in Islam and how those rights are exercised in conjunction with the rights of citizens in a given country. The UDHR is not considered valid in some parts of the world, but in countries where it's the foundation for legislation then yes, any Muslim woman who is being denied those rights in her country may exercise those rights by approaching the relevant authorities.

Could you give a few examples where a Muslim woman may waive her rights?

This is demonstrably false.


Demonstrate it then. Refute the tafseer (exegesis) I've presented.

That's one among many, yes. Hardly something that we 'focus' on.


Oh but you (not you specifically) do focus on it. It's been mentioned on this very thread about 4 times now.

Thanks, but I'm already educated when it comes to these matters,


Evidently, you're not.


although I'm well aware of the tendency among Muslims to assume that anybody who reaches a different conclusion to them obviously didn't examine the relevant documents in the 'correct' manner (and, of course, the arbiter of what is correct is always a Muslim apologist).


That's because it's generally true. Hint: reading a few wikiislam articles does not constitute "examining the relevant documents".

Even if I did know nothing about this, I certainly wouldn't use an obviously biased source like the one you've supplied to educate myself. :tongue:


The Muslims have a duty to clarify and explain any misconceptions about their faith. It's clear to me that you're not interesting in learning what Muslims actually believe, and would happily dismiss any Muslim sources, regardless of whether of not it's actually right. Here's a crazy idea: read it, and address it.
Original post by Hydeman

Thanks, but I'm already educated when it comes to these matters, although I'm well aware of the tendency among Muslims to assume that anybody who reaches a different conclusion to them obviously didn't examine the relevant documents in the 'correct' manner (and, of course, the arbiter of what is correct is always a Muslim apologist).

Even if I did know nothing about this, I certainly wouldn't use an obviously biased source like the one you've supplied to educate myself. :tongue:


Speaking of “correct” interpretations and biased sources… it’s interesting to see the opinion of the grand supreme Sheikh on IslamQA

https://islamqa.info/en/41199- Here’s him admitting hitting is okay with conditions, after a fair bit of question dodging.

https://islamqa.info/en/482- Here’s him telling a distressed Muslimah to man up (in soft language ofc)

https://islamqa.info/en/2083- Here’s him saying husbands are in a higher position than a wife, and men are the leader of “flock”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNIPbfck3ws– This is the great chancellor Medical Doctor Zakir Naik. He says it is okay with rules and regulations, and clearly states men are the leader of the family.

I can be persuaded to believe that these men will be demoted to the status of Not True Muslims™and Incorrect Interpretations™,if Muslims (including some from the ISOC) stop using these people as credible scholars and admit that the millions that follow them are Not True Muslims™
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by chemting
Speaking of “correct” interpretations and biased sources… it’s interesting to see the opinion of the grand supreme Sheikh on IslamQA

https://islamqa.info/en/41199- Here’s him admitting hitting is okay with conditions, after a fair bit of question dodging.


Tapping with a twig is hitting? :rofl:

https://islamqa.info/en/482- Here’s him telling a distressed Muslimah to man up (in soft language ofc)


He recognises that the husband's behaviour is not in line with the teachings of Islam, and is giving advice accordingly. You do realise that women in Islam are allowed to divorce their abusive husbands, right?

https://islamqa.info/en/2083- Here’s him saying husbands are in a higher position than a wife, and men are the leader of “flock



Oh no, it's the evil Patriarchy™ again :rolleyes: Clearly you've never been in a relationship :rofl: I'm sure you're a Nice Guy™, a Supreme Gentleman™ who knows how to keep a girl keen(!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNIPbfck3ws– This is the great chancellor Medical Doctor Zakir Naik. He says it is okay with rules and regulations, and clearly states men are the leader of the family.


I didn't know he was a scholar.

I can be persuaded to believe that these men will be demoted to the status of Not True Muslims™and Incorrect Interpretations™,if Muslims (including some from the ISOC) stop using these people as credible scholars and admit the millions that follow them are Not True Muslims™


IslamQA are not infallible, but that doesn't mean the ISOC Muslims should stop using it as a source.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by HAnwar
I think someone's confused between religion and culture :smile:

I think someone's confused as to how culture comes from religion :smile:
Original post by blah3210
Tapping with a twig is hitting? :rofl:


Three points:

(a) Tapping is common assault in English law, and
(b) The Koran does not mention twigs, but it does say that people should not interpret it, neither should they add to or subtract from its message; the twig is clearly a scholarly addition, and
(c) the Koran doesn't say "tap"; again, all this light tap stuff is interpretation (which Allah specifically forbade).
Original post by blah3210

The Muslims have a duty to clarify and explain any misconceptions about their faith.


They also have a dispensation to lie in the cause of Islam.
Original post by blah3210
Tapping with a twig is hitting? :rofl:


If you want to take scripture literally and ignore the "interpretation" provided, that's fine

Original post by blah3210
He recognises that the husband's behaviour is not in line with the teachings of Islam, and is giving advice accordingly. You do realise that women in Islam are allowed to divorce their abusive husbands, right?


The answer does not say anything about divorces, and that's a different question. I'm talking about what he said to the lady. Where in his list advices he says "divorce your abusive husband"? his "advises" are paraphrased as follows:

- get another guy to talk to your husband
- don't make him angry
- other women have it worse
- think about how good your husband is
- life is a test
- think about how bad a divorce will be
- write him a letter saying the prophet said this... (the prophet said a lot of things)
- remind him that "oppression is haram" - that's the only thing that could allude to a fact of being unIslamic.
- wait it out, have more children and hope
- pray to Allah


Original post by blah3210
Oh no, it's the evil Patriarchy™ again :rolleyes: Clearly you've never been in a relationship :rofl: I'm sure you're a Nice Guy™, a Supreme Gentleman™ who knows how to keep a girl keen(!)


How do you know I'm not a girl, or a homosexual guy?

"Patriarchy™" - Touche

Besides, I don't claim to be the perfect moral timeless being, who gives women tonnes of rights. I admit I have my flaws... I'm sure you don't think Islam does.

Original post by blah3210
I didn't know he was a scholar.


I never said he was. I just pointed out that this is his opinion. He is a preacher, are you saying he is "wrong"?

Just out of interest, how do you define a "scholar"?

Original post by blah3210
IslamQA are not infallible, but that doesn't mean the ISOC Muslims should stop using it as a source.


Whatever happened to one true interpretation? Do you agree that people have to cherry-pick their interpretations? Some of their interpretations are considered "righteous" (puts Islam in a good light), and others are considered "wrong and utterly unIslamic" (puts Islam in a bad light)?
(edited 8 years ago)
'Women Protection Bill ' contradicts 'Hitting woman with toothbrush ' bill established by the quran long ago- therefore cannot happen
Original post by blah3210
Tapping with a twig is hitting? :rofl:


.


what is the purpose of 'tapping with a twig' that had to be specified in islam
Original post by Good bloke
Three points:

(a) Tapping is common assault in English law


Technically, yes. But touching/tapping would not be considered an offence unless it was prolonged and/or caused harm.

(b) The Koran does not mention twigs, but it does say that people should not interpret it, neither should they add to or subtract from its message; the twig is clearly a scholarly addition


The Qur'an need not mention twigs or the nature of hitting since it's not the only source of prescriptions and legislation. The scriptural evidence for the validity of the interpreation has been provided in the form of "Sahih Hadeeth" (see the link provided).

(c) the Koran doesn't say "tap"; again, all this light tap stuff is interpretation (which Allah specifically forbade).


See above.
Original post by Good bloke
They also have a dispensation to lie in the cause of Islam.


They're not allowed to mislead the Muslims by making up rulings and attributing false sayings to Muhammad.
Original post by blah3210
It's not meaningless because we're talking about Muslims, their rights in Islam and how those rights are exercised in conjunction with the rights of citizens in a given country.


It is meaningless as far as the matter at hand is concerned. The hint is in the name: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, not the Declaration of Human Rights for Non-Muslim Countries. That Islamic countries continue to deny their population these rights does not mean that they are entitled to do so.

The UDHR is not considered valid in some parts of the world


Only in rogue states and states that would be considered rogue states if they weren't of economic or strategic interest to the rest of the world. And, as ever, the opinions of geriatric kings and dictators and Islamists aren't worth anything when it comes to the rights of other people.

but in countries where it's the foundation for legislation then yes, any Muslim woman who is being denied those rights in her country may exercise those rights by approaching the relevant authorities.


A redundant statement, given all that's been said. It's not the prerogative of Muslim countries to impose fascism simply as a matter of culture and expect this to be tolerated. That they currently are is a disgrace.

Could you give a few examples where a Muslim woman may waive her rights?


By not voting in a general election that she's entitled to vote in. :tongue:

(This may be a poor choice of words on my part: I meant something along the lines of 'choose not to exercise.':wink:

Demonstrate it then.


Do tell: how many women must testify one way in a Sharia court in order to equal the testimony of one man who claims the opposite? :rolleyes:

Oh but you (not you specifically) do focus on it. It's been mentioned on this very thread about 4 times now.


That's hardly a general focus of criticism of Islam -- this thread is specifically about a law protecting women being challenged for being 'un-Islamic', so that kind of thing will naturally receive more mentions here.

Hydeman
I'm well aware of the tendency among Muslims to assume that anybody who reaches a different conclusion to them obviously didn't examine the relevant documents in the 'correct' manner (and, of course, the arbiter of what is correct is always a Muslim apologist).


Evidently, you're not.

That's because it's generally true. Hint: reading a few wikiislam articles does not constitute "examining the relevant documents".


Have you ever heard of irony? :toofunny:You couldn't be more presumptuous (and wrong) if you tried.

It's not because it's generally true -- it's because most Islamic apologists are fundamentally dishonest and don't realise the fallacy of claiming authority simply on the grounds that they are practising Muslims and that critics of Islam (generally) are not. I won't pretend to have masses of free time to spend locking horns with people like that.

It's clear to me that you're not interesting in learning what Muslims actually believe


You're right, I'm not. I'm interested in what Islam actually prescribes. You could easily find two Muslims who are diametrically opposed on some issue on which Islam has a position (and their views may or may not be derived from their religion), and that would tell me nothing at all about what Islam says. Suffice it to say, I'm unlikely to get much further with you on this, what with you being ready to declare any objection to your conclusion as the result of 'ignorance.'

and would happily dismiss any Muslim sources, regardless of whether of not it's actually right.


I happily dismiss obviously biased sources, yes. I don't think I can be faulted for doing that.

Here's a crazy idea: read it, and address it.


While you, a presumptuous apologist, remain the arbiter of what counts as a correct reading? I'll pass, thanks. :rolleyes:
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by chemting
If you want to take scripture literally and ignore the "interpretation" provided, that's fine



The answer does not say anything about divorces, and that's a different questi on. I'm talking about what he said to the lady. Where is in list advices he say "divorce your abusive husband", his "advises" are paraphrased as follows:

- get another guy to talk to your husband
- don't make him angry
- other women have it worse
- think about how good your husband is
- life is a test
- think about how bad a divorce will be
- write him a letter saying the prophet said this... (the prophet said a lot of things)
- remind him that "oppression is haram" - that's the only thing that could allude to a fact of being unIslamic.
- wait it out, have more children and hope
- pray to Allah




How do you know I'm not a girl, or a homosexual guy?

"Patriarchy™" - Touche

Besides, I don't claim to be the perfect moral timeless being, who gives women tonnes of rights. I admit I have my flaws... I'm sure you don't think Islam does.



I never said he was. I just pointed out that this is his opinion. He is a preacher, are you saying he is "wrong"?

Just out of interest, how do you define a "scholar"?



Whatever happened to one true interpretation? Do you agree that people have to cherry-pick their interpretations? Some of their interpretations are considered "righteous" (puts Islam in a good light), and others are considered "wrong and utterly unIslamic" (puts Islam in a bad light)?


+1
Original post by blah3210
The scriptural evidence for the validity of the interpreation has been provided in the form of "Sahih Hadeeth"


No. The Koran itself forbids addition, subtractions and interpretations. It makes it very clear that the word of Allah is clear and complete, and may not be interfered with (not even, it says, by Mohammed), which is, of course, the whole basis of literal interpretations. It is the one scripture that makes that rule.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by blah3210
Tapping with a twig is hitting? :rofl:








If a man tried to reprimand me, a grown woman, in an equal relationship by tapping me with a twig, I would terminate the thing right there and then on the grounds of feeling enormously patronised along with having no desire to treated like a naughty child in adult life. I would literally end the relationship at that moment.

Thanks.
Original post by chemting
If you want to take scripture literally and ignore the "interpretation" provided, that's fine


There's no interpretation - the fact that Muslims are advised to use a twig indicates the symbolic punishment, as opposed to making it a physical one.

The answer does not say anything about divorces, and that's a different question. I'm talking about what he said to the lady. Where is in list advices he say "divorce your abusive husband", his "advises" are paraphrased as follows:


Why would he advise the lady to rush to divorce? What would you advise instead?

- get another guy to talk to your husband


A sensible first step, given how influential our friends can be.

- don't make him angry


I'd say the same thing if the wife was the one with a tendency to lash out.

- other women have it worse


That doesn't help, I'll admit.

- think about how good your husband is


Both spouses in Islam are encouraged to overlook the minor flaws of each other and focus on their good qualities. The 2nd Caliph, Umar's wife would often demean, insult and cuss Umar - did Umar beat her? No - he would remove himself from the situation and/or take her insults since she used to cook and clean for him (despite there being no obligation on her to cook for him in Islam).

- life is a test


Indeed.

- think about how bad a divorce will be


Exactly. Divorce should be the last resort.

- write him a letter saying the prophet said this... (the prophet said a lot of things)


Read what Muhammad said about the treatment of women. He was more of a feminist than you'd think :wink:

- remind him that "oppression is haram" - that's the only thing that could allude to a fact of being unIslamic.


Well oppression IS considered haram.

- wait it out, have more children and hope


Not particularly good advise here, I agree.

- pray to Allah


What's wrong with this?


How do you know I'm not a girl, or a homosexual guy?


How do you know the external world is real?

Besides, I don't claim to be the perfect moral timeless being, who gives women tonnes of rights. I admit I have my flaws... I'm sure you don't think Islam does.


The implication being that Islamic ethics are not perfect? Care to substantiate that claim?

I never said he was. I just pointed out that this is his opinion. He is a preacher, are you saying he is "wrong"?


I don't know, I'm not interested in watching his YouTube videos.

Just out of interest, how do you define a "scholar"?


The same way you'd define any academic/scholar.

Whatever happened to one true interpretation?


Some elements of Islam are indeed prone to interpretation, and there's nothing wrong with that (see the differences between the 4 schools of Sunni Islam).

Do you agree that people have to cherry-pick their interpretations? Some of their interpretations are considered "righteous" (puts Islam in a good light), and others are considered "wrong and utterly unIslamic" (puts Islam in a bad light)?


Depends on the interpretation and the weight of evidence supporting it.
Original post by Reformed
what is the purpose of 'tapping with a twig' that had to be specified in islam


Ask Allah :wink:
Original post by leavingthecity
If a man tried to reprimand me, a grown woman, in an equal relationship by tapping me with a twig, I would terminate the thing right there and then on the grounds of feeling enormously patronised along with having no desire to treated like a naughty child in adult life. I would literally end the relationship at that moment.

Thanks.


The tap with the twig (doesn't have to be a twig - it can be your finger) is not meant to be a patronising gesture. It could simply be a way of getting her attention - besides, this step would only be carried out in an extreme case. Before this step, other methods (i.e. talking, admonishing, refusing to share the bed) must be exhausted. When it gets to the tapping stage, it's likely that the husband is the one who's inclined to end the relationship.
(edited 8 years ago)
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Original post by Hydeman
The United States supported Israel. That was one of the 'provocations' cited by bin Laden, if I recall correctly.
And for having bases in KSA iirc. Althought why they would target US interests rather than Saudi is anyones guess.

If you really wanted to disprove this 'American foreign policy creates Islamist terrorism' nonsense, all you'd need to do is point anybody proposing this to the Barbary wars and the grievance over which they were fought. :rolleyes:
Yeah, but that's clearly not possible because all Muslims are peaceful unless they are driven out of their homes, apparently.

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