Women Protection Bill protested by religious leaders as 'un-Islamic'

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Where did I say that he needed to prove himself? He has the choice whether to reply to me or not and he can choose how he replies.

All along you have been attacking him for offering his support

He does not need to seek the approval of you before he offers his support to any cause he decided is worthy of supporting

You seem to have issues with this but don't want to be honest about what these issues are (it's pretty obvious though)

Rather patronising of you really and does nothing to help Ruby at all but then that's not what you are about is it.

Reply 221

username471863

Original post by BaconandSauce

I called him out on the half-baked, shoddy manner in which he offered his "support".

I did not ask him to seek my approval or tell him what to "support".

Who did I patronise and how? Do tell me about these "issues" you have assessed me to have because I am dying to know.

In a thread in which people joke about domestic abuse against "other" women and no one but me calls them out, it's safe to say that a number of people here have "issues that they don't want to be honest about". I'm sure that the women whose husbands have beaten them and used that verse as a justification must be dying with laughter.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 222

username471863

By the way I'm sure that Ruby can speak for herself about what she thinks of a lot of what has been said on this thread.

Oh wait, she already did, except that most of what she said was readily ignored and cast aside.

Reply 223

BaconandSauce

Original post by WBZ144

dying with laughter.

You called him out because of your issues

As I said I'll leave you alone with that massive chip you have (or if you want to pm queen Bee about me a bit more to make yourself feel a little better the knock yourself out)

Reply 224

username471863

Original post by BaconandSauce

Reply 225

troubadour.

Original post by Good bloke

We are western, white, male and atheist. The lowest of the low.

I'm only three out of those four things, so am I slightly less low? :curious:

Reply 226

username471863

Original post by Good bloke

We are western, white, male and atheist. The lowest of the low.

Self-proclaimed victimhood right there, your attitude is the problem. Sort of like those self-righteous people who go over to third world countries to "build" worthless "schools" to boost their egos.

Reply 227

wdkmwd

Original post by Good bloke

We are western, white, male and atheist. The lowest of the low.

I'm only 2 of those things :frown:

Reply 228

JezWeCan!

Original post by HucktheForde

"Diamonds". Al mudari once said women are treated like diamonds in islam. How precious! !

Posted from TSR Mobile

Kept in a vault, safe and away from prying eyes most of the year, brought out to be polished and looked at every now and again? :smile:

Reply 229

JezWeCan!

Original post by WBZ144

There are absolutely some left-wingers who are reluctant to criticise Islam as a faith but in most cases it has nothing to do with opposing liberal values.

Original post by WBZ144

What I have noticed is that many of them have insufficient knowledge of the religion. To top that up when they see Muslims being demonised by a very long list of right-wingers.

True enough on the first point. But why don't they take the trouble to research it? They don't seem to want to know the truth.

On the second point we need to take this simplistic left, right axis out of the debate. It is about fighting intolerance and standing up for liberal values. Something both left and right should agree on.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 230

Good bloke

Original post by WBZ144

Self-proclaimed victimhood right there,

Your sarcasm detector is on the blink, I think.

Reply 231

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Achaea

And don't forget 'wrapped candies'. As opposed, of course, to all us women who don't wear a piece of cloth on our heads and are therefore dirty unwrapped candies who attract flies and can be thrown on the floor. Mashallah, this likening of women to inanimate objects is just so empowering and awesome!

I read an article once about Muhammad Ali where he was telling his daughter(s?) all this crap about women being 'diamonds' and 'pearls' which are 'covered and protected' and 'hard to reach'. Absolutely sickening, though of course it gets repeated on some websites as though it's awesome and somehow respectful to women. Yuck yuck yuck.

I don't even think the sweet analogy makes much sense considering that you have to unwrap a sweet to eat it. No one buys sweets to keep them in their wrapper indefinitely.

Reply 232

username471863

Original post by Good bloke

Your sarcasm detector is on the blink, I think.

Yes, I can so relate to crying victim of prejudice over my sex, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and ethnicity when none of these things were mentioned in a negative light or implied to be so. I am sure, having done this so many times that there are examples of me doing so that people may quote.

It's very funny that this persecution complex is coming from some of the very same people complaining about Muslims crying "Islamophobia" at any negative mention of Islam. And for the record I am an Atheist and a Westerner as well. This does not mean that I have to silently put up with whatever BS any Atheist or Westerner comes out with.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 233

username471863

Original post by JezWeCan!

If you fail to criticise the faith you fail to stand up for liberal values. Where there is conflict, and we all know there are many instances of the conflict.

In fact, arguably, there is a strand, a small strand but a strand, of the religion which is actually at WAR with western liberalism.

True enough on the first point. But why don't they take the trouble to research it? They don't seem to want to know the truth.

On the second point we need to take this simplistic left, right axis out of the debate. It is about fighting intolerance and standing up for liberal values. Something both left and right should agree on.

While I agree that they should be educating themselves and becoming familiar with the teachings of the religion so that they are able to criticise what conflicts with liberal values, I disagree that they are "regressive". A lot of them are concerned about what this would mean for inclusion, although they're going about things the wrong way. During my undergrad years I would sometimes attend meetings held by the Feminist Society and in these meetings people would address issues faced by women in various parts of the world, including Muslim countries. While they would the disciss the systematic oppression against women in these countries, there was a reluctance to pinpoint Islam as a primary cause for this oppression.

At the time I was non-practicing Muslim who would not have felt threatened or intimidated if they had but I could tell that they did not want to risk alienating me and other Muslims within the society so they would simply dance around the topic of Islam's role in all of it. When you have a movement that welcomes people from all backgrounds, sometimes it can be tricky to strike a balance. Do I believe that they should do a better job at identifying the parts of Islam that contradict liberalism? Absolutely. But I understand why they are the way they are.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 234

QE2

Original post by Ruby17

Why don't you guys ever focus on US and the change we're fighting for, whilst risking our lives? I'm a 19 year old girl who lives in Pakistan who is fighting for women rights. I've founded my own youth initiative and am actively trying to make a difference, along with thousands of girls and women back here. This whole thread has been mainly been fighting about extremists, which by the way gives them huge leverage. All you can do is focus on them and, Islam. Do we only get noticed by all of you, when were shot in the head?

The best thing you can do for is, is providing support, because its not easy but instead I find some of you mocking and I find that sick. How about you come and take our position instead and lets see how you deal with being a resistant force in such a situation :smile:

Original post by WBZ144

I agree with you completely Ruby. I'm 100% behind you and every woman (and man) working for change in Pakistan and every other male-dominated society. The best thing that feminists in the West like me can do to promote women's rights in Pakistan is to give all of our support to the brave women who are actually making a difference.

The unfortunate truth is that many of the people you see on this thread don't care about such things, they have ulterior motives.

It is entirely possible, and reasonable, to both support the struggle of the oppressed, and at the same time oppose the ideology that is causing the oppression. In fact, it is kinda pointless doing one without doing the other.

Reply 235

Good bloke

Original post by QE2

Not only that, it is the ideology that is causing the oppression in this case, and preventing its cessation.

Reply 236

QE2

Original post by Zamestaneh

God is real.

If you refute this statement, you have to give hard evidence (which you can't do since there is no hard evidence against God).

If you are talking about the god of Islam, then you can.

1. Allah is perfect and infallible.
2. Allah wrote the Quran.
3. Therefore, the Quran must be perfect (ie. cannot be improved in any way).
4. The Quran is not perfect.
5. Therefore it was not written by Allah
6. Therefore the god it describes does not exist.

Reply 237

QE2

Original post by WBZ144

He made many, but his belittlement of Ruby's cause is the exact reason why feminists in Pakistan do not need many of the people who replied to this thread on their side (if they even are). So it in fact proved my point on what I said about them earlier.

Where did he "belittle" her cause, exactly?
He commented on the unhelpful attitude of some people towards the problem, and the perceived cause of that unhelpfulness.

And could you explain where it was "patronising", while you're at it?

Finally, explain what the "ulterior motives" of these people who you would rather not have on Ruby's side, are.
(BTW, don't you think it's a little patronising to be telling Pakistani feminists who they need and don't need on their side? )

Reply 238

QE2

Original post by WBZ144

For a girl struggling for change and risking her life the last thing she needs is to be told "nothing is going to change because your country is such and such" by a patronising outsider.

"The last thing she needs"? Really? And there you go again, actually patronising her by telling her what she does and doesn't need. From her post, it sounds like she's more than capable of figuring that out for herself .

He didn't say "nothing is going to change because...", he said "the situation will continue while...", two very different concepts. Yours denies the possibility of change. His explains the changes that need to be made in order for change to happen.
At least GoodBloke's comment addressed the reality of the situation. Any real progress requires a fundamental change in the nature of the relationship between state and religion. To claim otherwise is to deny reality. All you seem to be doing is "throwing her a bone" of support without actually considering what the issue involves. You seem more concerned with sniping at other people on here and airing your "holier than thou" liberal feminist credentials. It's not a competition, you know.

Reply 239

Zamestaneh

Original post by QE2

To prove your unsubstantiated claim that God doesn't exist, you make another unsubstantiated claim that the Quran is imperfect; would have expected better from you.

Anyways, it's best to get back on topic because I don't want you to be reported by anyone for being off-topic because it seemed it upset you quite a lot for impinging on your human rights last time.