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Donald Trump says UK and Europe are not safe places following Brussels attacks

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Original post by Duncaaaaaan
Sorry but we have to disagree, Islam is a problem. It's uncivilised, inhumane, and I'm surprised you're alright with it given it's absolutely dire treatment and attitudes towards women. Is the face veil actually the woman's choice for example? Will her husband beat and rape her, if she decides she doesn't want it, or is it actually her choice? The amount of rapes during the Arab Spring Uprising was unbelievable. There desperately needs to be a feminist revolution in the middle east. As for Germans after WW2, never looked at post war germany in history so I wouldn't know how other countries treated them. Germany hates itself so much I don't think it even matters.

And, I believe no country has truly attempted to actually remove ISIS off Earth yet. It's the same 'we must remain vigilant, we must stand together in solidarity etc etc' from world leaders, and people shrug and carry on.

What percentage of Muslim women do wear a veil?
Most Muslim women who do cover wear a hijab. I live in London which is the most diverse things get and I can probably use my fingers to count the amount of times I actually saw a women who wears a veil. Also, what makes you think they have no choice? Surely most do.
I done extensive research on the Muslim veil and what I learnt from the research is that it isn't a religious obligation rather a cultural/traditional attire.

Simply because they know it is impossible. ISIS isn't just a location; people in the UK, around Europe, Asia, Africa would have that ideology and removing them is near impossible.
Original post by ellie0497
What percentage of Muslim women do wear a veil?
Most Muslim women who do cover wear a hijab. I live in London which is the most diverse things get and I can probably use my fingers to count the amount of times I actually saw a women who wears a veil. Also, what makes you think they have no choice? Surely most do.
I done extensive research on the Muslim veil and what I learnt from the research is that it isn't a religious obligation rather a cultural/traditional attire.

Simply because they know it is impossible. ISIS isn't just a location; people in the UK, around Europe, Asia, Africa would have that ideology and removing them is near impossible.


sorry I meant both hijab and veil. And... well we can't know for sure but from what I've seen I just have a gut feeling, the hijab isn't their choice. Religious or cultural, doesn't matter. Religion is culture. I think it's being forced on them. Why are they being taught to feel ashamed about exposing hair in public? Why don't the men wear it too?

Please, don't give me this 'it's their culture' crap. Doesn't change the facts or my stance: the women are pressured to cover their hair/face, through fear and shame.
It's sad that Trump may be the last hope of Western civilization.
Original post by Agent\/\/hite
It's sad that Trump may be the last hope of Western civilization.


Nah he's not, the USA would be in very good hands with Bernie Sanders and he's not loony left. I hope he wins the democrat nomination, he should do given how how much Hilary's lies have been exposed and her email scandal.
Original post by Agent\/\/hite
It's sad that Trump may be the last hope of Western civilization.


Trump would destroy the USA
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
Apologies in advance if this is a bit detailed :tongue: I'm really interested in the whole ISIS thing so this may go on a bit.

The reason why we want to kill the caliph (head of the caliphate, at the moment this is a guy called Baghdadi) is because ISIS is a fanatical, fundamentalist Islamic group. In spite of a lot of people - including a great many politicians - declaring them not to be 'real muslims', in reality ISIS are the most true muslims of them all, according to the Qu'ran. They quite literally follow the will of Muhammad and follow in his footsteps. Every one of their laws, every one of their actions, is a direct result of their following the Qu'ran. They desire to kill all non-Sunni Muslims because it says to do so in Islamic scripture. They follow a doctrine called Takfiri, which literally earmarks for death anyone who does not follow Islam literally. They seek to aggressively expand their boundaries, because this is also Muhammad's will; he declared that the caliphate must accept no borders with non-believers. The point being, literally everything that ISIS do is built upon and found in Islamic scripture.

Now the reason why the caliphate is such a powerful propaganda tool is because in Islamic scripture, it says that one day a strong caliphate will emerge. It will expand its territories, until an anti-hero is born who will destroy this caliphate to within a few thousand Muslims, before Jesus will return and defeat this anti-hero and usher in the apocalypse, which is meant to be some glorious occurrence in the eyes of the Islamic faith. Now supposedly, the caliph who will see this through will be the 12th Islamic caliph, and Baghdadi is the 8th. So if we were to kill the next four caliphs, it would be a death knell to the caliphate. The whole structure of ISIS is built upon the holy word of Allah, it's whole existence and function is built on His word. If the 12th caliph were to pass without this apocalyptic event, it would destroy ISIS' whole claim to be the great Islamic caliphate to usher in the end.

That's obviously a gross oversimplification, but it shows why there is value in targeting the caliph.


Daesh draws from the Qu'ran sure, but they are far from the truest muslims - the only people who believe this are Daesh them selves and those with an anti-islam agenda.

Spoiler

Original post by Oilfreak1
Daesh draws from the Qu'ran sure, but they are far from the truest muslims - the only people who believe this are Daesh them selves and those with an anti-islam agenda.


But they say they are the truest Muslims of all. It's your words against theirs. Who am I supposed to believe?
Original post by Duncaaaaaan
But they say they are the truest Muslims of all. It's your words against theirs. Who am I supposed to believe?


Islam condemns killing hostages, it condemns killing non-combatants (civilians), it condemns using terror for a political cause.

Anyone who has actually skim-read the Quran knows that ISIS does not follow it to the word.
Original post by Duncaaaaaan
But they say they are the truest Muslims of all. It's your words against theirs. Who am I supposed to believe?


Choose whoever you want to believe is the truest, they aren't the truest according to the Qu'ran and Hadith though.

When the prophet of the religion you claim to be the only true believer of ordains the death of people with your attributes, you're probably not the truest believer.

Sure they justify alot of what they're doing using islamic scripture, I can see the link there but they flat out ignore entire chapters that condemn their abbhorent behaviour.

Call them Muslim, I agree. Call their actions Islamic, I agree (to an extent). Call them the truest muslims, if thats your opinion sure but don't pretend the scriptures unanimously support your opinion.

Spoiler

(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Duncaaaaaan
sorry I meant both hijab and veil. And... well we can't know for sure but from what I've seen I just have a gut feeling, the hijab isn't their choice. Religious or cultural, doesn't matter. Religion is culture. I think it's being forced on them. Why are they being taught to feel ashamed about exposing hair in public? Why don't the men wear it too?

Please, don't give me this 'it's their culture' crap. Doesn't change the facts or my stance: the women are pressured to cover their hair/face, through fear and shame.


Are you a Muslim girl? No.

Most likely they're not forced though there must be the ones who are. Most girls choose to wear it from experience. You're drawing a conclusion based on what you assume.

Girls who do wear a hijab dress like everyone else so I am sure if they were forced to wear it, they wouldn't dress the way they do.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ellie0497
Are you a Muslim girl? No.

Most likely they're not forced though there must be the ones who are. Most girls choose to wear it from experience. You're drawing a conclusion based on what you assume.


Yes my views on this skewed by the fact that I'm a (straight) male I'll give you that but I am looking at this objectively. And just to clarify I am talking about the women in places like Saudi Arabia.
Original post by Duncaaaaaan
Yes my views on this skewed by the fact that I'm a (straight) male I'll give you that but I am looking at this objectively. And just to clarify I am talking about the women in places like Saudi Arabia.


Well obviously women in Saudi Arabia can't speak for the rest of the Muslim women around the world.
Original post by Oilfreak1
Choose whoever you want to believe is the truest, they aren't the truest according to the Qu'ran and Hadith though.

When the prophet of the religion you claim to be the only true believer of ordains the death of people with your attributes, you're probably not the truest believer.

Sure they justify alot of what they're doing using islamic scripture, I can see the link there but they flat out ignore entire chapters that condemn their abbhorent behaviour.

Call them Muslim, I agree. Call their actions Islamic, I agree (to an extent). Call them the truest muslims, if thats your opinion sure but don't pretend the scriptures unanimously support your opinion.

Spoiler



I apologise, 'truest' is probably an ambiguous choice of words. I mean to say that they follow the orders of the Qur'an and Hadith more closely than any other branch of Islam. In the strictest sense, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is Allah's word in its most perfect and complete form, and so the 'truest' Muslims would be those who followed His word literally, as any attempt to read into what is being said would be to sully this. And there is no denying that it is ordered in the Qur'an that a caliphate be established; it fact, it's pivotal to their belief in the second coming of Jesus (or more correctly, Isa Ibn Maryam) and the defeat of the antichrist. Further, there is no denying that an Islamic caliphate in the image of those of Muhammad's era must condone slavery, crucifixion and amputation amongst other barbaric behaviours, as they are again prescribed in the Qur'an. Just as an example, strictly speaking, Muslims should not vote. Voting for someone is to endorse and recognise the authority of someone other than God. It is described as an act of Shirk, roughly translated as polytheism, and so is outlawed.

Every single thing that ISIS do has direct support from the Qur'an, for the simple fact that the very nature of a caliphate demands it. In order to claim the title caliph, the laws as set out in the Qur'an must be enforced. If the caliph were to stray from this, he would be informed of his error by an adviser, and if he persisted to ignore this then he would be excommunicated and replaced by a new caliph. For this reason, there is not a single thing that ISIS do which does not get direct support from the Qur'an or Hadith. So in that sense, they are the 'truest' muslims as they follow Allah's word more completely than anyone else (with the potential exception of Quietist Salafis, who believe in much the same things as ISIS, but believe that the prophesied caliphate will rise some time in the future).
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
I apologise, 'truest' is probably an ambiguous choice of words. I mean to say that they follow the orders of the Qur'an and Hadith more closely than any other branch of Islam. In the strictest sense, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is Allah's word in its most perfect and complete form, and so the 'truest' Muslims would be those who followed His word literally, as any attempt to read into what is being said would be to sully this. And there is no denying that it is ordered in the Qur'an that a caliphate be established; it fact, it's pivotal to their belief in the second coming of Jesus (or more correctly, Isa Ibn Maryam) and the defeat of the antichrist. Further, there is no denying that an Islamic caliphate in the image of those of Muhammad's era must condone slavery, crucifixion and amputation amongst other barbaric behaviours, as they are again prescribed in the Qur'an. Just as an example, strictly speaking, Muslims should not vote. Voting for someone is to endorse and recognise the authority of someone other than God. It is described as an act of Shirk, roughly translated as polytheism, and so is outlawed.

Every single thing that ISIS do has direct support from the Qur'an, for the simple fact that the very nature of a caliphate demands it. In order to claim the title caliph, the laws as set out in the Qur'an must be enforced. If the caliph were to stray from this, he would be informed of his error by an adviser, and if he persisted to ignore this then he would be excommunicated and replaced by a new caliph. For this reason, there is not a single thing that ISIS do which does not get direct support from the Qur'an or Hadith. So in that sense, they are the 'truest' muslims as they follow Allah's word more completely than anyone else (with the potential exception of Quietist Salafis, who believe in much the same things as ISIS, but believe that the prophesied caliphate will rise some time in the future).


They follow certain aspects of Qu'ran and Hadith closely (those that suit their brutal agenda) and totally ignore passages condemning their actions. Any scholar disputing them is labelled a "scholar for a dollar", "cocount" etc. and any Muslim who goes against them is instantly non-muslim.

Similarly moderates follow the more easily swallowed portions of the faith and ignore passages that are not compatible with western/modern society.

No one group is more true than the other, the moderate is partaking in usury and democracy while the Khajirites are ignoring Islamic tenets on war and people with their characteristics were foretold and despised by the prophet of Islam.

The difference is that moderates accept that they're lacking in faith while Daesh assert their position as the "truest" muslims and the anti-muslim brigade laps this up.

Tl;dr - Both factions are cherry picking the religion neither one is "truer".
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Frank Underwood
Islam condemns killing hostages, it condemns killing non-combatants (civilians), it condemns using terror for a political cause.

Anyone who has actually skim-read the Quran knows that ISIS does not follow it to the word.


That is a remarkably black and white way of looking at it. I'd be interested to know what you make of the following quotes from the Qur'an:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush"

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And that's just the Qur'an, Hadith tends to condone even more violence.
Original post by Oilfreak1
They follow certain aspects of Qu'ran and Hadith closely (those that suit their brutal agenda) and totally ignore passages condemning their actions. Any scholar disputing them is labelled a "scholar for a dollar", "cocount" etc. and any Muslim who goes against them is instantly non-muslim.

Similarly moderates follow the more easily swallowed portions of the faith and ignore passages that are not compatible with western/modern society.

No one group is more true than the other, the moderate is partaking in usury and democracy while the Khajirites are ignoring Islamic tenets on war and people with their characteristics were foretold and despised by the prophet of Islam.

The difference is that moderates accept that they're lacking in faith while Daesh assert their position as the "truest" muslims and the anti-muslim brigade laps this up.

Tl;dr - Both factions are cherry picking the religion neither one is "truer".


Okay, 'truer' is a poor choice of words. Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be ISIS follow the actions of Muhammad and his descended caliphs more accurately than most all other muslims. Which certainly isn't a good thing; those who follow any religion to the letter are by and large nutjobs. The only real point I was making is that the claim that ISIS aren't 'real Muslims' is utter nonsense aimed at passing the buck, rather than accepting that there are issues in Islam, just as Christianity has been forced to accept the inherent issues in the Bible.
Reply 156
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
That is a remarkably black and white way of looking at it. I'd be interested to know what you make of the following quotes from the Qur'an:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush"

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And that's just the Qur'an, Hadith tends to condone even more violence.





Apparently when it comes to peaceful verses in the Qur'an, you don't have to look into the context and it's impossible to "cherry-pick" them.

But with the Violent verses, Oh you must look into the context Every single Islamic scholar on earth comments about, read surrounding verses, cross-reference, translate to Arabic, carefully analyse it word for word with an imam, etc etc
Original post by Dodgypirate

It is fact that we suffer far more from terrorism than the US.


Erm, no. It isn't.
His solution is to bloack all muslim immigration, trouble is that the main threat is home grown terror and recruits are not always muslims to begin with, the ********s recruit all religions, even atheists by exploiting human psychology.
Reply 159
Original post by AliRizzo
Erm, no. It isn't.




Europe as a whole Continent, compared to The USA, a single country with an even smaller percentage of muslims that Countries like England, France and Sweden?


Erm yes they do.

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