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Why is SPaG important?

Poll

Should SPaG be assessed in GCSE,A Level or University Exams?

I hate the fact that the Government is introducing more and more SPaG into GCSEs but why is Spelling,Punctuation and Grammar important.Its important that you can understand the work you are reading but if you can't you would have to give it a low mark anyway without assessing SPaG.

As long as the work is understandable whether they have used SPaG correctly is irrelevant. SPaG is completely made up you can't prove any of the rules, the rules differ completely in different languages.Its not like Science/Maths where you can prove or test theories or rules and they make logical sense, language is completely made up.

Why should you mark a student for using a different set of rules to what schools are trying to force students to use because someone decided so hundreds of years ago?

People might argue that this would make reading a lot more difficult and thus we shouldn't allow the dropping of SPaG assessment.However, studies have shown that making things harder to read is actually beneficial to learning.

Therefore, encouraging different non-consistent uses of SPaG that represent a person's individual writing style would actually be a good idea.
(edited 8 years ago)

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Clearly you don't understand what you have read since the news article you posted was about using fonts that are difficult to understand, not texts with messy spelling, grammar, and punctuation.
Reply 2
Original post by Little Toy Gun
Clearly you don't understand what you have read since the news article you posted was about using fonts that are difficult to understand, not texts with messy spelling, grammar, and punctuation.


The same logic applies if something is more difficult to read students will concentrate more on it and thus learn more, if it is easy then they will assume they understand when they don't.With easy to read text you will rush reading it and could assume you know it when you don't but if its hard you will spend time on trying to decipher it and thus are likely to learn more.

Making something harder to read will improve learning either by using harder to read fonts or harder to read language with messy SPaG.

I watched a video on how there are two types of human thinking type 1(very basic and suitable for simple tasks) and 2(much deeper thinking) using 1 can often make you come up with incorrect conclusions like if a bat and a ball add up to 1.10 and the bat is 1 more than the ball using 1 will make you think the ball is 0.10 when its actually 0.05.I am confident messy SPaG will force you to use thinking type 2.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Dalek1099
The same logic applies if something is more difficult to read students will concentrate more on it and thus learn more, if it is easy then they will assume they understand when they don't.With easy to read text you will rush reading it and could assume you know it when you don't but if its hard you will spend time on trying to decipher it and thus are likely to learn more.

Making something harder to read will improve learning either by using harder to read fonts or harder to read language with messy SPaG.

I watched a video on how there are two types of human thinking type 1(very basic and suitable for simple tasks) and 2(much deeper thinking) using 1 can often make you come up with incorrect conclusions like if a bat and a ball add up to 1.10 and the bat is 1 more than the ball using 1 will make you think the ball is 0.10 when its actually 0.05.I am confident messy SPaG will force you to use thinking type 2.


Just because it's possible to apply one situation to another, doesn't change the fact that the study was not about messy SPaG. In the case of SPaG, messy texts are very likely to deliver inaccurate and/or misleading messages and thus not only learning, but mere comprehension is hindered.

To claim that the study supports your view is essentially like saying drinking poison is good for your health because studies showed that drinking water is good for your health and they both are liquid.
I struggled to read La Morte d'Arthur because of the different spellings (it being Middle English and all). It took a lot of concentration to read, and I couldn't tell you a thing that happened in it. However, ask me about The Bell Jar, written with the SPaG I am used to, and I can tell you exactly what happened, despite only reading it once, while I read d'Arthur three times.
We can't expect students to analyse texts if they're struggling just to work out what the sentences say.
Additionally, who would read for enjoyment if it took a lot of work to understand the text? Obviously more literary texts do take concentration, but imagine trying to teach a toddler to read when cat could be spelt "cat", "kat", "catt" or "katt". The level of frustration would almost certainly prevent them from ever picking a book up out of choice.


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Original post by Little Toy Gun
To claim that the study supports your view is essentially like saying drinking poison is good for your health because studies showed that drinking water is good for your health and they both are liquid.


But if a study showed that drinking water is good for your health purely because it is a liquid, then you should be able to say the same about any liquid. I see your point, but disagree with the analogy.

Personally I don't see why SPaG needs to be considered so important, provided that it's not so lax that it alters the meaning of the the sentence or makes it ambiguous. I'm fluent in Hindi and Urdu (which use their own alphabets), and am quite used to reading text messages sent to me in these languages, but using the English alphabet. When using mismatching alphabets like this, there are absolutely no rules about how anything needs to be spelt, but it's still perfectly easy to read and understand.
(edited 8 years ago)
SPaG is the difference between:

"i helped my uncle jack off a horse"
And
"I helped my uncle Jack, off a horse."
I think SPAG is important in GCSE'S, especially English because it demonstrates skills of structuring paragraphs and sentences with punctuation, spelling is essential in making it easier for someone to read something as there is only one way to do so and grammar makes the writing flow coherently and more interesting to read. In our school, when we do peer assessments, bad grammar puts me off because it can ruin the beauty of worlds.

As for your point with other languages, SPAG does differ. For example, Spanish and English have different grammar rules. But, why would you not know the English grammar rules if you have been taught by teachers?
Reply 8
Original post by Ashleyclaire
I struggled to read La Morte d'Arthur because of the different spellings (it being Middle English and all). It took a lot of concentration to read, and I couldn't tell you a thing that happened in it. However, ask me about The Bell Jar, written with the SPaG I am used to, and I can tell you exactly what happened, despite only reading it once, while I read d'Arthur three times.
We can't expect students to analyse texts if they're struggling just to work out what the sentences say.
Additionally, who would read for enjoyment if it took a lot of work to understand the text? Obviously more literary texts do take concentration, but imagine trying to teach a toddler to read when cat could be spelt "cat", "kat", "catt" or "katt". The level of frustration would almost certainly prevent them from ever picking a book up out of choice.


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I don't see how this would cause too much trouble I read through speaking the words in my head so all those 4 ways of spelling would mean the same to me as they all sound the same.

Reading bad English(with bad SPaG) is also becoming very common, people might not like this but its true a lot of the comments I read from people have extremely bad SPaG or are wrote in pure slang(increased due to dyslexia difficulties as well), its starting to get more common for people to use this sort of English instead of 'proper' English.

This is why Grammar Nazis are so annoyed with life using "Your eating beans" instead of "You're eating beans" is becoming more common, I will frequently make many mistakes unless I really concentrate on what I'm writing which is a waste of time and some of this bad English is arguably easier to understand due to the words being shorter.

In my Maths degree we are using abbreviations for words and even using symbols instead, so the practice of correct English isn't always being applied at University either and a lot of my lecturers claim they can't spell.
Reply 9
Original post by Tinemither
SPaG is the difference between:

"i helped my uncle jack off a horse"
And
"I helped my uncle Jack, off a horse."


Poor example both of those read like example 2, it took me a while to see what you wanted me to read for example 1.We don't use punctuation for speech and this is something that confuses me why do we use it for text and not speech?
The world still judges people with poor spag as unintelligent making it difficult for them to get good jobs and progress in life... as is illustrated to humorous effect in the youtube contained in my sigfile.
Reply 11
Original post by reinaadira
I think SPAG is important in GCSE'S, especially English because it demonstrates skills of structuring paragraphs and sentences with punctuation, spelling is essential in making it easier for someone to read something as there is only one way to do so and grammar makes the writing flow coherently and more interesting to read. In our school, when we do peer assessments, bad grammar puts me off because it can ruin the beauty of worlds.

As for your point with other languages, SPAG does differ. For example, Spanish and English have different grammar rules. But, why would you not know the English grammar rules if you have been taught by teachers?


The rules are different in other languages which means there is little logic behind why the rules should be the way they are, as opposed to Maths and Science.Forcing pupils to use a set of rules because someone decided that they should use them like that because they liked it is just manipulating people to write in a certain way that is not necessarily the correct way, its not that different from manipulating people to belief a religious belief.

I believe that our expression of language through our writing should show individuality.Also, bad SPaG can be used for effect and show a lot of meaning in the text(something that the GCSE doesn't take into account) ie. it could show that the person writing it was in a rush(lack of paragraphs could do the same even though if you do this you lose loads of marks), wanted the text to remain secretive(young people's slang would be much harder to read for an old person).
Original post by Dalek1099
Poor example both of those read like example 2, it took me a while to see what you wanted me to read for example 1.We don't use punctuation for speech and this is something that confuses me why do we use it for text and not speech?

Not really. You should have read 1 without pausing. Punctuation in speech comes from natural pauses and variation in tone/pace.
Original post by Dalek1099
The rules are different in other languages which means there is little logic behind why the rules should be the way they are, as opposed to Maths and Science.Forcing pupils to use a set of rules because someone decided that they should use them like that because they liked it is just manipulating people to write in a certain way that is not necessarily the correct way, its not that different from manipulating people to belief a religious belief.

I believe that our expression of language through our writing should show individuality.Also, bad SPaG can be used for effect and show a lot of meaning in the text(something that the GCSE doesn't take into account) ie. it could show that the person writing it was in a rush(lack of paragraphs could do the same even though if you do this you lose loads of marks), wanted the text to remain secretive(young people's slang would be much harder to read for an old person).


I see what you mean in the first paragraph, about how rules differ but that is just the way GCSE'S work and if it sticks to one type of grammar then it makes it easier to mark.
With the Bad Grammar, I do agree it sometimes can be used for effect like Slang Words and this can be used in actual books but I think the examiners want to know your knowledge of proper, standard grammar first
Reply 14
SPaG is important to help people to convey ideas in a clear, succinct, and professional manner. I agree that 10 marks for grammar and spelling in a geography test is slightly absurd, but it's good to have some incentive for young people to learn how to write properly.
Reply 15
Original post by reinaadira
I see what you mean in the first paragraph, about how rules differ but that is just the way GCSE'S work and if it sticks to one type of grammar then it makes it easier to mark.
With the Bad Grammar, I do agree it sometimes can be used for effect like Slang Words and this can be used in actual books but I think the examiners want to know your knowledge of proper, standard grammar first


Also, I would argue that the rules of SPaG actually make little sense and are very inconsistent like for example the rule "i before e except after c" which has loads of exceptions and without explanation(I'd argue this for a lot of spellings).

Mathematics and Science actually makes sense if there is something that breaks the rules then it makes sense like division by zero.
Original post by ombtom
SPaG is important to help people to convey ideas in a clear, succinct, and professional manner. I agree that 10 marks for grammar and spelling in a geography test is slightly absurd, but it's good to have some incentive for young people to learn how to write properly.

^^

Inconsistency would just be annoying to read
Original post by Dalek1099
Also, I would argue that the rules of SPaG actually make little sense and very inconsistent like for example the rule "i before e except after c" which has loads of exceptions and without explanation(I'd argue this for a lot of spellings).Mathematics and Science actually makes sense if there is something that breaks the rules then it makes sense like division by zero.


I've not read anything you've said but can't believe you're back man, I miss you from the old year 11 thread :biggrin:
Original post by Dalek1099
Poor example both of those read like example 2, it took me a while to see what you wanted me to read for example 1.We don't use punctuation for speech and this is something that confuses me why do we use it for text and not speech?


Just because you don't say "comma" doesn't mean punctuation doesn't exist in speech.

I'll bet you go up slightly in tone at the end of a sentence when asking a question.
I'll bet you pause briefly when you go from one part of a sentence to another, or when you make a list.

That is exactly what punctuation does for text.
Original post by Dalek1099
Also, I would argue that the rules of SPaG actually make little sense and are very inconsistent like for example the rule "i before e except after c" which has loads of exceptions and without explanation(I'd argue this for a lot of spellings).

Mathematics and Science actually makes sense if there is something that breaks the rules then it makes sense like division by zero.


That is a "rule" people use to help remember things, which happens to have exceptions. It isn't an official rule of the English language

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