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Capitalism is better than socialism?
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Original post by HanSoloLuck
When there isn't much regulation what doesn't/didn't happen ?
Companies are forever being caught in breach of monopoly laws.
Capitalist entrepreneurs, did and have in all manner of speaking owned their employees. Remember the work houses in industrial Britain, well obviously not, but that's what it looks like.
If humans weren't so flawed we could create a socialist system akin to that of star trek, never going to happen I know. But on paper, socialism is better.
In reality, not so much.
Companies are forever being caught in breach of monopoly laws.
Capitalist entrepreneurs, did and have in all manner of speaking owned their employees. Remember the work houses in industrial Britain, well obviously not, but that's what it looks like.
If humans weren't so flawed we could create a socialist system akin to that of star trek, never going to happen I know. But on paper, socialism is better.
In reality, not so much.
Those work houses, funnily enough that wasn't in a free market.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
Original post by banterboy
third way IS capitalism...also I swear you're a far leftist
Third way really is not capitalism.
Original post by banterboy
third way IS capitalism...also I swear you're a far leftist
I'm not far leftist at all. I'm centre/soft left. Around where Miliband or Brown were.
Original post by Jammy Duel
Those work houses, funnily enough that wasn't in a free market.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
Third way really is not capitalism.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
Third way really is not capitalism.
ofc it is, it's a free market with left wing expenditure...you wouldn't say that Blair was a socialist would you?
Original post by banterboy
ofc it is, it's a free market with left wing expenditure...you wouldn't say that Blair was a socialist would you?
Blair was a social democrat, Blair was not Capitalist, capitalism in its purest form is a truly free market which makes it and third way inherently contradictory in the same way that capitalism and socialism are.
Original post by Jammy Duel
Blair was a social democrat, Blair was not Capitalist, capitalism in its purest form is a truly free market which makes it and third way inherently contradictory in the same way that capitalism and socialism are.
free markets don't exist in real life though, there is of course a sliding scale. And the definition of social democracy/third way is left wing interventionism within a capitalist economy, so it's by definition capitalism.
Original post by banterboy
free markets don't exist in real life though, there is of course a sliding scale. And the definition of social democracy/third way is left wing interventionism within a capitalist economy, so it's by definition capitalism.
Then everything is simultaneously capitalist and socialist.
Original post by neal95
definitely this is not a republic!!!!!!!
...huh? do you even know what a republic is...?
Original post by Jammy Duel
Those work houses, funnily enough that wasn't in a free market.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
As someone many would describe as an 'extreme lefty' I'm more sympathetic to the principal of free markets than a lot of people think I should be, but as you say a true free market has ever been attempted at any meaningful scale.
The problem occurs when the State gets involved, The State and the Free Market are competing concepts that cannot co-exist as the State will constantly try to game and fix the market for it's own gain.
Now, in practice, Capitalism always comes with the development of a State or State-like infrastructure as a means of arbitrating disputes amongst the owners of private property, so you see Free Markets only have so much to gain from Capitalist economies.
I think a capitalist society with some small socialist elements (free primary and secondary education, some welfare support) is the best way forward. The government should definitely remove the bureaucracy and regulation it has on so many markets and needs to reduce tax and government spending to enccourage people to work hard and not rely on the state. Capitalism also gives companies an incentive to be efficient in their use of resources and encourages them to meet consumers wishes.
(edited 8 years ago)
Against Socialism
I'd support socialism for its economic ideology and principles. However its social policies are out of touch with normal poor or working class people in Britain, such as law and order.
1) The irony is its the poor and working class who are more likely to be victims of violent crime and murder as their neighbourhoods are plagued with crime. While the lefty middle classes living in safe leafy suburbs tell people to be more tolerant of crime.
Many socialist groups in Britain oppose long jail sentences for murderers, rapists etc and think we should be more tolerant and liberal regarding crime.
2) Secondly we are fed up at how Britain's socialists constantly belly ache about Palestine and Zionists. What about the problems people face here? Bedroom taxes, disabled being forced off benefits and forced to work or starve? How the Tories are getting away with their war on the poor and vulnerable!
2a) Also are socialists unaware of other struggles abroad such as the suffering faced by the Kurds in Turkey? Or is that ok because the Turks arn't Jewish?
3) Also socialists just can't accept that poor and working class people struggle to afford to keep their cars on the road. The left would force every working class motorist off the roads by charging unaffordable road taxes and petrol prices while the rich would have the roads to themselves!
Against Capitalism
The Tories have launched the mother of all wars against the poor and vulnerable. Rich people get tax breaks. Big business gets rewarded while small businesses are taxed to bankruptcy. While the cruel benefit reforms are slowly killing people.
The disabled are being told they're fit to work and must become Jobseekers then denied that benefit because they're unfit fit work. So they get no help they starve and become homeless and freeze to death on the streets, that's the capitalist way of cutting the benefits bill.
The jobless are sanctioned off benefits with degrading workfare schemes that provided free labour to big buisness or get long sanctions with 100% loss of benefit if they're a minute late for Jobcentre appointments.
Some choose self employment except They're penalised into becoming wage slaves for big business. They know they can't set up they're own buisness as small buisnesses are heavily taxed and don't get the tax breaks and rewards of large corporations.
Then the bedroom tax is another attack on the poor. However filthy rich property investors get away with owning several properties and the more they own the more rewards they get from this filthy Tory capitalist government.
I'd support socialism for its economic ideology and principles. However its social policies are out of touch with normal poor or working class people in Britain, such as law and order.
1) The irony is its the poor and working class who are more likely to be victims of violent crime and murder as their neighbourhoods are plagued with crime. While the lefty middle classes living in safe leafy suburbs tell people to be more tolerant of crime.
Many socialist groups in Britain oppose long jail sentences for murderers, rapists etc and think we should be more tolerant and liberal regarding crime.
2) Secondly we are fed up at how Britain's socialists constantly belly ache about Palestine and Zionists. What about the problems people face here? Bedroom taxes, disabled being forced off benefits and forced to work or starve? How the Tories are getting away with their war on the poor and vulnerable!
2a) Also are socialists unaware of other struggles abroad such as the suffering faced by the Kurds in Turkey? Or is that ok because the Turks arn't Jewish?
3) Also socialists just can't accept that poor and working class people struggle to afford to keep their cars on the road. The left would force every working class motorist off the roads by charging unaffordable road taxes and petrol prices while the rich would have the roads to themselves!
Against Capitalism
The Tories have launched the mother of all wars against the poor and vulnerable. Rich people get tax breaks. Big business gets rewarded while small businesses are taxed to bankruptcy. While the cruel benefit reforms are slowly killing people.
The disabled are being told they're fit to work and must become Jobseekers then denied that benefit because they're unfit fit work. So they get no help they starve and become homeless and freeze to death on the streets, that's the capitalist way of cutting the benefits bill.
The jobless are sanctioned off benefits with degrading workfare schemes that provided free labour to big buisness or get long sanctions with 100% loss of benefit if they're a minute late for Jobcentre appointments.
Some choose self employment except They're penalised into becoming wage slaves for big business. They know they can't set up they're own buisness as small buisnesses are heavily taxed and don't get the tax breaks and rewards of large corporations.
Then the bedroom tax is another attack on the poor. However filthy rich property investors get away with owning several properties and the more they own the more rewards they get from this filthy Tory capitalist government.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Ambitious1999
Against Socialism
I'd support socialism for its economic ideology and principles. However its social policies are out of touch with normal poor or working class people in Britain, such as law and order.
Many socialist groups in Britain oppose long jail sentences for murderers, rapists etc and think we should be more tolerant and liberal regarding crime.
Secondly we are fed up at how Britain's socialists constantly belly ache about Palestine and Zionists. What about the problems people face here? Bedroom taxes, disabled being forced off benefits and forced to work or starve? How the Tories are getting away with their war on the poor and vulnerable!
Also are socialists unaware of other struggles abroad such as the suffering faced by the Kurds in Turkey? Or is that ok because the Turks arn't Jewish.
Also socialists just can't accept that poor and working class people struggle to afford to keep their cars on the road. The left would force every working class motorist off the roads by charging unaffordable road taxes and petrol prices while the rich would have the roads to themselves!
Against Capitalism
The Tories have launched the mother of all wars against the poor and vulnerable. Rich people get tax breaks. Big business gets rewarded while small businesses are taxed to bankruptcy. While the cruel benefit reforms are slowly killing people.
The disabled are being told they're fit to work and must become Jobseekers then denied that benefit because they're unfit fit work. So they get no help they starve and become homeless and freeze to death on the streets, that's the capitalist way of cutting the benefits bill.
The jobless are sanctioned off benefits with degrading workfare schemes that provided free labour to big buisness or get long sanctions with 100% loss of benefit if they're a minute late for Jobcentre appointments.
Some choose self employment except They're penalised into becoming wage slaves for big business. They know they can't set up they're own buisness as small buisnesses are heavily taxed and don't get the tax breaks and rewards of large corporations.
Then the bedroom tax is another attack on the poor. However filthy rich property investors get away with owning several properties and the more they own the more rewards they get from this filthy Tory capitalist government.
I'd support socialism for its economic ideology and principles. However its social policies are out of touch with normal poor or working class people in Britain, such as law and order.
Many socialist groups in Britain oppose long jail sentences for murderers, rapists etc and think we should be more tolerant and liberal regarding crime.
Secondly we are fed up at how Britain's socialists constantly belly ache about Palestine and Zionists. What about the problems people face here? Bedroom taxes, disabled being forced off benefits and forced to work or starve? How the Tories are getting away with their war on the poor and vulnerable!
Also are socialists unaware of other struggles abroad such as the suffering faced by the Kurds in Turkey? Or is that ok because the Turks arn't Jewish.
Also socialists just can't accept that poor and working class people struggle to afford to keep their cars on the road. The left would force every working class motorist off the roads by charging unaffordable road taxes and petrol prices while the rich would have the roads to themselves!
Against Capitalism
The Tories have launched the mother of all wars against the poor and vulnerable. Rich people get tax breaks. Big business gets rewarded while small businesses are taxed to bankruptcy. While the cruel benefit reforms are slowly killing people.
The disabled are being told they're fit to work and must become Jobseekers then denied that benefit because they're unfit fit work. So they get no help they starve and become homeless and freeze to death on the streets, that's the capitalist way of cutting the benefits bill.
The jobless are sanctioned off benefits with degrading workfare schemes that provided free labour to big buisness or get long sanctions with 100% loss of benefit if they're a minute late for Jobcentre appointments.
Some choose self employment except They're penalised into becoming wage slaves for big business. They know they can't set up they're own buisness as small buisnesses are heavily taxed and don't get the tax breaks and rewards of large corporations.
Then the bedroom tax is another attack on the poor. However filthy rich property investors get away with owning several properties and the more they own the more rewards they get from this filthy Tory capitalist government.
You do know that most of what you spouted has little to do with capitalism or socialism but social policy and fiscal conservatism (or otherwise)?
Original post by Jammy Duel
Blair was a social democrat, Blair was not Capitalist, capitalism in its purest form is a truly free market which makes it and third way inherently contradictory in the same way that capitalism and socialism are.
The problem comes with trying to box complex issues into simple terms. I don't believe that a person is 'a capitalist' or 'a socialist' per se. They are both multifaced and can interact with each other on various scales, I don't think anyone rejects either.
If you believe in some sort of a free market, that's capitalist, if you believe in a nationalized health service or education system, to a degree that's socialist.
They mix and interact in real life and i'd think most people would accept a degree of both.
I don't see capitalism and socialism as directly contradictory. In some ways they are but in many others they interact with one another and can complement each other.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Jammy Duel
Those work houses, funnily enough that wasn't in a free market.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
Third way really is not capitalism.
We hear so much about how the free market is terrible and against human nature and socialism and communism has never been truly tried; well the exact same argument works at least as soundly in reverse, socialism is terrible and against human nature, a truly free market has never been tried.
Third way really is not capitalism.
I never said anything about human nature or that communism was better. Not literally, on paper it looks better, but in reality we can't make it work. I'm not suggesting we try either.
You seem to be taking the impression that I am pro-communist or pro-unregulated markets.
I'm neither.
And the workhouses were set up for those that couldn't compete in the free market of industrial Britain, then the people in charge attempted to run them as free market businesses. For profit.
Original post by Jammy Duel
Then everything is simultaneously capitalist and socialist.
nah, any society modelled on western liberalism is by default capitalist until you specifically implement another system
Original post by banterboy
nah, any society modelled on western liberalism is by default capitalist until you specifically implement another system
SO because it contains heavy capitalist tendencies it is capitalist, but heavy socialist tendencies don't also make it socialist?
Original post by Bornblue
The problem comes with trying to box complex issues into simple terms. I don't believe that a person is 'a capitalist' or 'a socialist' per se. They are both multifaced and can interact with each other on various scales, I don't think anyone rejects either.
If you believe in some sort of a free market, that's capitalist, if you believe in a nationalized health service or education system, to a degree that's socialist.
They mix and interact in real life and i'd think most people would accept a degree of both.
I don't see capitalism and socialism as directly contradictory. In some ways they are but in many others they interact with one another and can complement each other.
If you believe in some sort of a free market, that's capitalist, if you believe in a nationalized health service or education system, to a degree that's socialist.
They mix and interact in real life and i'd think most people would accept a degree of both.
I don't see capitalism and socialism as directly contradictory. In some ways they are but in many others they interact with one another and can complement each other.
Except for by their very definitions
Original post by Jammy Duel
Except for by their very definitions
But what happens in reality is more important. Nothing can really be truly capitalist or truly socialist/communist.
They interact in real life and co-exist. I don't think anyone would reject completely any form of socialism or capitalism.
The problem is we like simple labels. We like things to be black and white. We like to point at countries and people and go 'they're socialist/capitalist' without acknowledging the multi-faced complexities and nuance of the issue.
Of course Blair supported capitalism, he believed firmly in the free market. Yet he also believed in a protective welfare state and vast public services and thus supported socialism.
They co-exist.
Original post by Bornblue
But what happens in reality is more important. Nothing can really be truly capitalist or truly socialist/communist.
They interact in real life and co-exist. I don't think anyone would reject completely any form of socialism or capitalism.
The problem is we like simple labels. We like things to be black and white. We like to point at countries and people and go 'they're socialist/capitalist' without acknowledging the multi-faced complexities and nuance of the issue.
Of course Blair supported capitalism, he believed firmly in the free market. Yet he also believed in a protective welfare state and vast public services and thus supported socialism.
They co-exist.
They interact in real life and co-exist. I don't think anyone would reject completely any form of socialism or capitalism.
The problem is we like simple labels. We like things to be black and white. We like to point at countries and people and go 'they're socialist/capitalist' without acknowledging the multi-faced complexities and nuance of the issue.
Of course Blair supported capitalism, he believed firmly in the free market. Yet he also believed in a protective welfare state and vast public services and thus supported socialism.
They co-exist.
coexistence is not the same as non-contradictory.
Original post by Jammy Duel
SO because it contains heavy capitalist tendencies it is capitalist, but heavy socialist tendencies don't also make it socialist?
Well, third way has few socialist tendencies, albeit a lot of leftist ones.
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