Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils?
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Original post by Puddles the Monkey
What about bisexual people? 
Permanent blindfolds for the safety of us all???
how do mixed sex changing rooms work? I doubt many 15 year old girls would be happy stripping off in front of the boys and putting in enough cubicles for every student who needs to change is just not practical...
I had mixed sex toilets at my school and to be honest, while it solved some problems (e.g. girls spending lunchtime in the toilets because they then stunk all the time), people adopted a 'boys side' and 'girls side' automatically so there'd still be an issue with using the 'wrong' toilet and they were pretty gross
for uniforms, I think it is stupid to tell anyone they can't wear a specific piece of uniform because of their gender anyway, wearing gender neutral choices (i.e. trousers) is probably a smart choice in high school as if you make a statement about something like that people WILL pick on you no matter how much the school cracks down on it but I don't see any issue if someone wants to do that, it's their choice
but yeah, don't think there's a need for massive amounts of change, for one, we're talking a tiny population of students here who will identify as trans AND want to present that way in front of their peers (for reasons mentioned above), I don't see why there is an issue with them using the toilet of the gender their identify as and if necessary, using a toilet to change in for PE
I had mixed sex toilets at my school and to be honest, while it solved some problems (e.g. girls spending lunchtime in the toilets because they then stunk all the time), people adopted a 'boys side' and 'girls side' automatically so there'd still be an issue with using the 'wrong' toilet and they were pretty gross
for uniforms, I think it is stupid to tell anyone they can't wear a specific piece of uniform because of their gender anyway, wearing gender neutral choices (i.e. trousers) is probably a smart choice in high school as if you make a statement about something like that people WILL pick on you no matter how much the school cracks down on it but I don't see any issue if someone wants to do that, it's their choice
but yeah, don't think there's a need for massive amounts of change, for one, we're talking a tiny population of students here who will identify as trans AND want to present that way in front of their peers (for reasons mentioned above), I don't see why there is an issue with them using the toilet of the gender their identify as and if necessary, using a toilet to change in for PE
How is building a unisex toilet going to make the experience of pissing in the toilet any different to using the male or female toilets? I'm very confused as to how this is supposed to help.
Same deal with the uniforms and changing rooms really. What exactly is supposed to be changed?
Same deal with the uniforms and changing rooms really. What exactly is supposed to be changed?
I can't imagine how difficult it must be to look at a male and female toilet/changing room sign and think "I don't fit into either of these", but be forced to pick in this black and white system. I understand the risk of exploitation, but with the right design and security, it really could help a lot of peoples' lives. I don't think it should be limited to just schools, either.
Original post by PQ
Maybe gay men and lesbians should be excluded from communal changing areas too 
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
What about bisexual people?
Original post by PQ
Permanent blindfolds for the safety of us all???
I highly doubt they'll be attracted to people with views like this, don't worry
Maybe having a Girls changing room, a boys changing room and a few individual cubicles for trans pupils or pupils who want to change in private.
The same could be used for toilets.
Have a skirt uniform and a trouser uniform? I hated wearing school skirts because they were so short. The trousers where either too long or didn't fit round the middle. I happen to have quite wide hips.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The same could be used for toilets.
Have a skirt uniform and a trouser uniform? I hated wearing school skirts because they were so short. The trousers where either too long or didn't fit round the middle. I happen to have quite wide hips.
Posted from TSR Mobile
**** me sideways, this thread makes me not want to be on this planet anymore. Middle class people wondering about stupid middle class problems
What on earth? How have most people voted 'No' on this poll? I am horrified at the lack of empathy here. There was a transgendered person at my school who ended up leaving because my school practically forced them to do so by being so terrible on these issues. For example, not allowing them into either the men or women's changing rooms, making them stay in a separate bedroom in school trips. The school even tried to say that they couldn't dress in boy's clothes but in the end had to give up on that because at that point there was no dress code for the sixth form. The discrimination was just awful.
Original post by Platopus
What on earth? How have most people voted 'No' on this poll? I am horrified at the lack of empathy here. There was a transgendered person at my school who ended up leaving because my school practically forced them to do so by being so terrible on these issues. For example, not allowing them into either the men or women's changing rooms, making them stay in a separate bedroom in school trips. The school even tried to say that they couldn't dress in boy's clothes but in the end had to give up on that because at that point there was no dress code for the sixth form. The discrimination was just awful.
Have you looked at the ideas people have put forward? I think that is why most people have voted no.
The only thing that needs altering is the acceptance that people with gender dysphoria are whatever they identify as and put safeguards in place to stop the possibility of abuse of the systems implemented.
I'm all for gender neutral facilities. I mean, yeah, as a trans person i'd find it helpful - the bathroom situation can be awful sometimes. Lat time I used the men's at college it felt like the entire male population had descended on the loos and I just wanted to run out screaming. But, like, in terms of changing facilities it could help those who are generally insecure about their bodies? On a couple of occasions a kid in my year got forced to change in with everyone else and you could tell that her (what I can only assume were) self harm scars were keeping her back. As long as it's not an open space, meaning there's separate changing cubicles I don't see the issue.
Original post by JohnGreek
I'd be up for allowing trans boys to use boys bathrooms, as long as they provided the school with some form of psychiatric or medical assessment that proved that they were indeed suffering from gender dysphoria
It's hard to get the diagnosis of dysphoria the way things are - you need five appointments overall (one appointment to get to have two appointments with two psychiatrists) to get the diagnosis, which is currently between 18 months and 5 years. Being diagnosed with GD isn't like going to CAHMS and being diagnosed with depression or something like that.
Original post by AlteredBoy
It's hard to get the diagnosis of dysphoria the way things are - you need five appointments overall (one appointment to get to have two appointments with two psychiatrists) to get the diagnosis, which is currently between 18 months and 5 years. Being diagnosed with GD isn't like going to CAHMS and being diagnosed with depression or something like that.
But consider the alternative if there is nothing in place then the system will be abused.
What alternative safeguards would you impose?
i feel like people online make out that there are so many transgendered people whereas in reality there's probably only a couple in every town. Out of all the 200 people in my year at school there was only 1 transgendered girl. I just think that it would be unnecessary to make an all gender toilet for just a couple of pupils and it would probably do them more harm than good. Same with uniform, allowing them to wear any uniform is fine but surely there's more chance of them getting bullied for it?
Original post by joecphillips
But consider the alternative if there is nothing in place then the system will be abused.
What alternative safeguards would you impose?
What alternative safeguards would you impose?
It'd depend on the facility and the timetable and all of that jazz, but I'd have 2, maybe 3 single person cubicles to change in with a toilet on either end. It gets around any safeguarding issue, as there isn't technically enough room for the system to be manipulated by those who don't need it nor enough room for any physical/sexual harassment. Teachers seem to be pretty 'up' on trans issues at the minute, or if there wasn't a PE teacher of the sort in the school perhaps one of the office staff, therefore i'd try to get one of them to pop their heads in maybe 2-3 minutes at the start/before the end of each PE lesson to ensure nothing that could cause a safeguarding issue is happening.
Original post by Articultr
i feel like people online make out that there are so many transgendered people whereas in reality there's probably only a couple in every town. Out of all the 200 people in my year at school there was only 1 transgendered girl. I just think that it would be unnecessary to make an all gender toilet for just a couple of pupils and it would probably do them more harm than good. Same with uniform, allowing them to wear any uniform is fine but surely there's more chance of them getting bullied for it?
That you know of. Especially as you say you're still at school, people are generally scared to come out at school and do so later in life. But the option may help people feel more comfortable - if it even helps 1 person's life it's worth it.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The fact that children and young teenagers are deciding that they're 'transsexual' and 'transgender' is even more concerning. How do they even know at that age? I think we're leading down a path that's just going to confuse children and adolescents even more. Transgender this, non-gender-conforming that... what is this, East Tumblr High?
It's not necessarily practical, either. Most schools are built with only two locker rooms, and sometimes a disabled facility. Are they gonna make these special snowflakes change out in a hut?
It's not necessarily practical, either. Most schools are built with only two locker rooms, and sometimes a disabled facility. Are they gonna make these special snowflakes change out in a hut?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Wewuz Hebrews
The obsession with protecting certain strata of the population is beginning to become a bad joke, eventually students of all genders will be forced to wear androgynous jumpsuits.
both genders*
Original post by Dandaman1
The fact that children and young teenagers are deciding that they're 'transsexual' and 'transgender' is even more concerning. How do they even know at that age? I think we're leading down a path that's just going to confuse children and adolescents even more. Transgender this, non-gender-conforming that... what is this, East Tumblr High?
It's not necessarily practical, either. Most schools are built with only two locker rooms, and sometimes a disabled facility. Are they gonna make these special snowflakes change out in a hut?
It's not necessarily practical, either. Most schools are built with only two locker rooms, and sometimes a disabled facility. Are they gonna make these special snowflakes change out in a hut?
1. You don't get to decide if you're trans or not. In a lot of cases you know something ain't right with your body from the age of like 5-6, in others it takes a little longer to manifest but nevertheless they didn't decide.
2. It would do literally no harm to new schools to build a gender neutral facility, or when older ones have a refurbishment a little space from male and female facilities wouldn't go amiss in order to make at least one person feel more comfortable in education (lets face it all schools ted to care about is the grades the students get and students aren't going to do well if they don't feel comfortable at the centre.
3. 'Special Snowflake' is hardly appropriate to call trans people when cis boys can't handle their female peers having a bit of skin on show.
There are two outed transgender boys at my 'all-girls' (heh) school, one in year 10 and one in year 11 - both have had names changed on the register after a doctor's note and both have he/him and their preferred names used by teachers, and the latter is having the exam board change his name just before we start GCSEs in May, I think. Our school also changed the signs to say 'student toilets' rather than 'girl's toilets'but both boys can use the sixth form-only and disabled toilets if they feel uncomfortable using the toilets around girls. I know a few other trans people, too, who aren't out to teachers but identify as something other than female.
I hope this doesn't come across as using them as tokens or anything. I'm very close friends with both of them and as far as I'm aware, the only school-related trouble they've had thus far is a room change on our residential; teachers having to book an extra room or two so they aren't with girls.
As for the poll, I don't even think uniform should be gendered anyway. If a boy wants to wear a skirt and makeup, let him. If a girl wants to have a boyish haircut and wear trousers, let her. If someone wants to stay androgynous-looking and flit between the two, let them. Changing rooms and toilets would be more of an issue to make all-gender, though. I can see a lot of potential for bullying and assault going on in there, which would be impossible to prove or have evidence for since security cameras are illegal in those places - but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of bullying happens in changing rooms/toilets anyway.
I don't know. If they can find a way to have all-gender toilets for those who feel uncomfortable in single-gender ones or who are neither male nor female without there being a significant risk, then they should definitely try to implement it. For a single-sex school, ours is pretty accommodating (although there are a few slip-ups now and then), but I don't know how well things would fare in bigger schools or schools with a lot of major issues to deal with alongside that.
I hope this doesn't come across as using them as tokens or anything. I'm very close friends with both of them and as far as I'm aware, the only school-related trouble they've had thus far is a room change on our residential; teachers having to book an extra room or two so they aren't with girls.
As for the poll, I don't even think uniform should be gendered anyway. If a boy wants to wear a skirt and makeup, let him. If a girl wants to have a boyish haircut and wear trousers, let her. If someone wants to stay androgynous-looking and flit between the two, let them. Changing rooms and toilets would be more of an issue to make all-gender, though. I can see a lot of potential for bullying and assault going on in there, which would be impossible to prove or have evidence for since security cameras are illegal in those places - but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of bullying happens in changing rooms/toilets anyway.
I don't know. If they can find a way to have all-gender toilets for those who feel uncomfortable in single-gender ones or who are neither male nor female without there being a significant risk, then they should definitely try to implement it. For a single-sex school, ours is pretty accommodating (although there are a few slip-ups now and then), but I don't know how well things would fare in bigger schools or schools with a lot of major issues to deal with alongside that.
(edited 8 years ago)
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