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What should be done for the steel industry in Port Talbot?

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Howard
Half the countries in the EU are illegally propping up their steel industries in the face of Chinese overproduction. Only the Brits are daft enough to follow the rules, sit on their hands, and see their industries decimated.

If the EU was worth a toss it would be imposing tarrifs on Chinese steel like the US is doing. Is the US car industry hurt as a result? No. It's booming both domestically and on an export front.


Original post by Maker
Tarrifs are the consumers of the country imposing them giving taxes to their government, its basically a hidden tax pretending to be protecting jobs.

If Americans want to pay extra taxes, let them, I don't want to pay extra taxes so I don't want tariffs.

Its stupid using taxpayers' money to prop up a failing industry when there are lots of emerging industries that could benefit a lot more with more potential for growth and employment.


You are talking past one another.

Fighting trade wars may be a bad idea but the EU's pitch is that it brings its members victory in trade wars and it doesn't.

If you want to drop tariffs so you can buy cheap stuff and let the chips fall where they may - which I regard as pretty sensible - EU membership is difficult to justify.
Original post by Joinedup
The USA, which is often held up as an example of red blooded capitalism, has introduced a tariff on Chinese steel which they claim is being dumped to improperly gain market share.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-imposes-266-duty-on-some-chinese-steel-imports-1456878180


It is my understanding that even the Chinese cannot produce steel at the price they are selling it at; that they have vastly overproduced steel, likely because their state-owned producers do not receive sufficient feedback on what is an adequate amount of steel to produce. Thankfully, I don't think millions have died this time as a result, but I do fear that we could be sleep-waking towards a state-controlled monopoly on steel production.
Original post by Smack
It is my understanding that even the Chinese cannot produce steel at the price they are selling it at; that they have vastly overproduced steel, likely because their state-owned producers do not receive sufficient feedback on what is an adequate amount of steel to produce. Thankfully, I don't think millions have died this time as a result, but I do fear that we could be sleep-waking towards a state-controlled monopoly on steel production.


I doubt it's lack of feed back, I expect it far more likely "produce as much as you can go keep our artificially high growth up"

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Original post by Jammy Duel
I doubt it's lack of feed back, I expect it far more likely "produce as much as you can go keep our artificially high growth up"

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Well, something along those lines that a private enterprise would not be able to do.
It is a strategically important industry. We do have a defense equipment industry that requires many types of high value steel that can be produced at Port Talbot. Have fun trying to build a warship from Chinese made steel.

The industry was crippled due to stupidly high energy and carbon cost, letting in cheap **** Chinese steel is simply circumventing environmental regulations and releasing greenhouse gasses elsewhere rather than at our own backyard.

What to do with it? Nationalize it obviously, if banks can be rescued so can a steel mill.
Original post by Alfissti
It is a strategically important industry. We do have a defense equipment industry that requires many types of high value steel that can be produced at Port Talbot. Have fun trying to build a warship from Chinese made steel.

The industry was crippled due to stupidly high energy and carbon cost, letting in cheap **** Chinese steel is simply circumventing environmental regulations and releasing greenhouse gasses elsewhere rather than at our own backyard.

What to do with it? Nationalize it obviously, if banks can be rescued so can a steel mill.


It's energy costs are 6% of the total cost.

15% of that 6% is green taxes

You are right about high grade steel though it's the only kind we should be making


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Maker
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Original post by Alfissti
It is a strategically important industry. We do have a defense equipment industry that requires many types of high value steel that can be produced at Port Talbot. Have fun trying to build a warship from Chinese made steel.

The industry was crippled due to stupidly high energy and carbon cost, letting in cheap **** Chinese steel is simply circumventing environmental regulations and releasing greenhouse gasses elsewhere rather than at our own backyard.

What to do with it? Nationalize it obviously, if banks can be rescued so can a steel mill.


What makes you think Chinese steel is not good for warships? Do you have some information on that?

Steel is not strategically important, Britain can buy steel from dozens of countries at low cost. If there is a war, Britain has lots of steel that can be recycled. Britain has a very little iron ore so even if Port Talbot was still working, Britain would run out of iron ore very quickly in the event there was a blockade and would have to import it.

A lot of modern warships have large amounts of aluminium and plastic instead of steel.
Original post by Alfissti
It is a strategically important industry. We do have a defense equipment industry that requires many types of high value steel that can be produced at Port Talbot. Have fun trying to build a warship from Chinese made steel.

The industry was crippled due to stupidly high energy and carbon cost, letting in cheap **** Chinese steel is simply circumventing environmental regulations and releasing greenhouse gasses elsewhere rather than at our own backyard.

What to do with it? Nationalize it obviously, if banks can be rescued so can a steel mill.


So you're saying that the Chinese do not have warships made of steel. It's also worth noting that the banks failing criplples the global economy, and particularly badly the national economy, steel failing does not, it's a tiny sector with very small knock on effects to the rest of the economy.

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Original post by Maker
What makes you think Chinese steel is not good for warships? Do you have some information on that?

Steel is not strategically important, Britain can buy steel from dozens of countries at low cost. If there is a war, Britain has lots of steel that can be recycled. Britain has a very little iron ore so even if Port Talbot was still working, Britain would run out of iron ore very quickly in the event there was a blockade and would have to import it.

A lot of modern warships have large amounts of aluminium and plastic instead of steel.


Of course China makes high grade steel but most of it is standard, the point is it is much more expensive for high grade steel


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(edited 8 years ago)
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Original post by paul514
Of course China makes huge grade Stella but most of it is standard, the point is it is much more expensive for high grade steel


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Those in the ship building business would issue a specification for the steel it wants and ask for tenders. I don't know what types of steels are used for ship building. China has a sizable ship building industry so I expect it would be easy to get steel needed from China.
Original post by Maker
What makes you think Chinese steel is not good for warships? Do you have some information on that?


Chinese steel is well known to be generally sub-par.
Reply 111
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JonSci
Get out of steel and start investing in some actual sectors which represent our country's development i.e. Research
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Original post by Smack
Chinese steel is well known to be generally sub-par.


No proof then, shame! When you claim something, its a good idea to have some proof to back it up, relying on people's belief in you as a purveyor of truth and facts is not really enough seeing no one knows who you are.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Maker
No proof then, shame!


If you worked in engineering and was an end user of Chinese steel you might have your own proof.
Original post by Smack
If you worked in engineering and was an end user of Chinese steel you might have your own proof.


Onus is on the claim maker, until such a time as you produce evidence that the Chinese are incapable of producing high enough grade steel the logical conclusion is that they do. So come on, do you have proof that the Chinese are incapable or are you full of air as hot as the blast furnaces they make it in?

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Original post by Smack
If you worked in engineering and was an end user of Chinese steel you might have your own proof.


What do you know about Chinese made steel made for ship building?
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Original post by Smack
If you worked in engineering and was an end user of Chinese steel you might have your own proof.


You do realise there are more than one maker of steel in China and I suppose some are bad and some are good just like any other maker of anything.

I had a bad kebab once, does that mean all kebab shops produce bad kebabs or some are bad and some are good?
Original post by Jammy Duel
Onus is on the claim maker, until such a time as you produce evidence that the Chinese are incapable of producing high enough grade steel the logical conclusion is that they do. So come on, do you have proof that the Chinese are incapable or are you full of air as hot as the blast furnaces they make it in?

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I've heard of anecdotes about Chinese mills not being able to maintain tolerances on supplies to outright falsified chemical tests. I'm sure some mills are fine, but given the amount of anecdotes floating around the engineering community, there seems to be many that aren't.

Original post by Maker
What do you know about Chinese made steel made for ship building?


I'm not in the marine industry, but I don't think there would be specific grades of steel made for ship building.
Original post by Smack
I've heard of anecdotes about Chinese mills not being able to maintain tolerances on supplies to outright falsified chemical tests. I'm sure some mills are fine, but given the amount of anecdotes floating around the engineering community, there seems to be many that aren't.



I'm not in the marine industry, but I don't think there would be specific grades of steel made for ship building.


Ah, so now we're talking about anecdotal evidence in some cases to generalise to the whole stock.

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Original post by Jammy Duel
Ah, so now we're talking about anecdotal evidence in some cases to generalise to the whole stock.

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You're really grasping at straws here if you are to discount the community that actually uses said product. Rightly or wrongly, Chinese steel has a reputation of not being of the standard that the customer requires.

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