The Student Room Group

How would a outright burqa and face veil ban go down in England?

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(edited 7 years ago)

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Reply 1
It would annoy some people. It would infuriate others (most of the people it infuriates are people who would never ever dream of wearing one).


An overwhelming majority wouldn't care because it wouldn't affect them one iota.
Reply 3
Original post by Dara Dahl


They look pretty angry.
Most people wouldn't care, if it's worked in France them it would work here.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Most people wouldn't care, if it's worked in France them it would work here.


I'm not sure about that. The reason France was able to enforce the ban is because France has a very long and well established tradition of a fully secular education rooted in the French revolution. The French are defending the secular nature of their public life and public education which they see as an essential part of their society, and even so this ban was considered very controversial, as it included banning the hijab and all other conspicuous religious symbols from schools.

Unfortunately the UK does not have such a secular tradition at all. We allow the operation of religious schools, we allow sharia courts for key civil matters (which is shocking to me), and political correctness has reached such mad levels that the Labour party even allowed several of its meetings last year to take place with segregated seating between women and men.

My feeling is that there would be an uproar against banning the niqab in the UK (even more so if they decided to ban the hijab from schools), which is all the more reason to ban it. I have no doubt that there would be more protests against this ban than against any jihadist terrorist attacks that have taken place so far.
Personally I believe that telling people what they can and cannot wear is well beyond the remit of any government.
nope - freedom of expression > nanny state policies
it is highly appropriate to "ban" (or allow private companies to prohibit) face coverings in places where they deem it necessary, but not a blanket ban. by "public" place, if that means state buildings like hospitals, schools, etc, then if the state thinks it's appropriate to adopt a uniform or a code of dress that is *necessary*, not simply desired, then that's also reasonable.

whether islam is an abhorrent religion or not, you can't support a policy like this if you believe in personal liberty and not banning things which harm nobody else. if a woman is being forced to wear a veil, she ought to phone the police.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by mojojojo101
Personally I believe that telling people what they can and cannot wear is well beyond the remit of any government.


Considering that every government in history has passed legislation directly or indirectly telling people what they can and cannot wear, I would say that the current government is competent on this matter.

The freedom to wear what people want has never been fundamental; decency, security, public order, social harmony, or preventing hate propaganda, have always been more important than an absolute liberty in that field.

As it's forbidden to walk around naked, except under some special circumstances, it should be forbidden to walk around fully concealed, except under some special circumstances.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 9
Original post by AlmightyJesus
if a woman is being forced to wear a veil, she ought to phone the police.


Yeah, it will work for her.
It would annoy some people but I think loads of other people would welcome it. We should be more like France.
Original post by Josb
Yeah, it will work for her.


unless she speaks no english, yes it would.
and if we're imposing a limitation to our freedom of expression because muslim women can't speak english which is important for calling the police, we shouldn't be allowing muslim women to even come in the first place because they won't be covered by police protection. and obviously I'm generalising muslims as immigrants because at one stage, every generation of muslim in this country begins with an immigrant (basically) and muslim immigration has only been going since the 70s
(edited 8 years ago)
I would expect at least 20,000 muslims angrily kicking off in every major city in the country. I would expect after the next terrorist attack (Which is coming regardless of any policy change to anything) Lots of regressive leftists would say Its because we banned the burqa!
Reply 13
Original post by AlmightyJesus
unless she speaks no english, yes it would.

The husband/father will say "no I didn't force her". The police won't be able to prove it. He will return in his family and punish his daughter/wife.

Original post by AlmightyJesus
and if we're imposing a limitation to our freedom of expression because muslim women can't speak english which is important for calling the police, we shouldn't be allowing muslim women to even come in the first place because they won't be covered by police protection.

Well, I agree on that, but since or immigration control system is a joke, we have to deal - and protect - those we have let in - even though that was a mistake.
Original post by Josb
The husband/father will say "no I didn't force her". The police won't be able to prove it. He will return in his family and punish his daughter/wife.


well if that's the case, she ought to run away, and if she can't run away, then we've done all we can. if they ban the burqa, they'll just surely force her to never leave the house.

Well, I agree on that, but since or immigration control system is a joke, we have to deal - and protect - those we have let in - even though that was a mistake.


we don't have to let in anybody if their overall net effect is a limitation on our individual freedom though, surely?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by RivalPlayer
A lot of people associate the burqa and face veil with oppression. While I agree that this is the case in some Islamic countries where it is enforced through cultural practices, I believe it to be less true in Western nations, particularly in a city like London. I think if you see a woman in London dressed in a burqa with a veil then it is more likely that she is wearing it by choice and not as a result of being oppressed.
In my opinion if you were to ask a veil wearing Muslim woman why she has chosen to cover up in a way that completely masks her identity on the streets of London, you'd probably receive a hostile rant on how it's a choice before being accused of being a "racist". I just don't think you'd get a response that would suggest that she didn't want to dress like that and was only doing so under duress.

As a Londoner myself, when I see a woman in a burqa and veil, I don't see oppression, I see an unwillingness to integrate - a firm refusal to find a happy medium between one's native culture and English culture. It is an exploitation of this country's tolerance to show everyone else that one's native cultural practices and values (regardless of incompatibility) trump everything else and there is no compromise.

I believe this is a form of self segregation by choice, so it is all the more ridiculous when people who dress like this complain about not being accepted in society while completely overlooking the fact that they are alienating themselves by refusing to adapt to the basic societal norms of the country that they reside in.Proper integration is a key element when it comes to mitigating Islamic extremism among Muslim communities.
The burqa and veil both represent a barrier to integration as it reinforces the Muslim and non-Muslim distinction in a very obvious way. It also runs counter to the societal norms of this country - we don't normally interact with each other while our faces are covered up. Being able to identify and interpret a person via their facial features is an essential component of our everyday (close range) social interaction.

The ability to clearly identify a person's face is also essential when we consider our evolving threat landscape. The burqa and veil not only allows a person to conceal their identity, but it also allows the effective concealment of knives, firearms and body mounted explosives.I think all of the above are valid reasons to ban both garments.
People say that similar bans in places like France and Belgium have encouraged Islamic terrorism and hostility between Muslims and non-Muslims. We often pride ourselves on our tolerance and people believe this is the fundamental reason why relations are "better" among Muslim and non-Muslim communities in the UK. But is this really true? By being tolerant, we are just becoming a hotbed for poorly integrated Muslims and essentially setting ourselves up for wealth of future cultural clashes and Islamic extremism.

I don't think we're better than France or Belgium because we allow people to wear these garments. I think our tolerance just gives Muslims who have no desire to integrate a blank card to come here and live like they do in their native lands with all the perks of a developed nation. Choosing to don the burqa and veil is a vivid crystallization of this intention.
Our tolerance isn't actually protecting us from anything - look at the number of British Muslims who sympathise with ISIS or have gone out to fight for them. Acceptance of the burqa and veil has done nothing to discourage them from hating Britain.

So in light of this, how do you think a complete burqa and veil ban would go down among Muslim communities in England? Would it be seen as an attack on Islam?
Do you think an outright ban is on the cards in the near future considering our evolving threat and security landscapes?
And lastly, how do non-Muslims feel about seeing the burqa and veil on the streets of England?

Thoughts?


This is one of the reasons I can't wait to leave this country. You can't go out in your hijab or niqab without being seen as some sort of enemy to the British society, or as you put it, someone who "refuses to integrate". Why must I compromise my religion (not culture) just to be accepted by a bunch of Islamophobes? We live in a multicultural society, whether you like it or not, and people need to start getting used to this. Get used to seeing Muslim women wearing veils, Indian women wearing sarees, Jewish men with their kippahs or fur hats, whatever they're called. You don't need to look British (haven't a clue what that even is) to integrate and you can still follow your religion if that's what you wish. Surprising isn't it? Hijab or no hijab I will still contribute towards the British economy, pay my taxes and be a good citizen - better than some natives. Maybe the Brits who live abroad ought to "integrate" more too, don't you think?
Reply 16
Original post by AlmightyJesus

we don't have to let in anybody if their overall net effect is a limitation on our individual freedom though, surely?


I don't want to admit anybody that doesn't benefit the country.
Original post by Josb
I don't want to admit anybody that doesn't benefit the country.


good, because that makes sense - that's a rational policy for a government. our government has no duty to help people without the tax payers benefitting, do they? what's the fundamental purpose of a state? simple: to benefit its citizens. if an immigrant doesn't fulfil that role in *some* sense, then they're not deserving to come over here.
Reply 18
Original post by yasminkattan
This is one of the reasons I can't wait to leave this country.

Neither can I.

You will then realise how tolerant Britain was compared to other Western countries.
Original post by Josb
Neither can I.

You will then realise how tolerant Britain was compared to other Western countries.


I obviously won't be going to another Western country

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