Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils?
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Original post by HeimIX
Id rather not.
Why?
Original post by Implication
Why?
Its not that I wouldn't have compassion to one I don't really care about them. They live among us and thats fine, if I knew any in real life its just that id rather not get mixed up with them. I don't fudge with that trans/homo stuff
Original post by Chaz W
Compassion yes, mental disorders should be treated as mental disorders - pandering and surgery, no.
Original post by paul514
What mental disorder are you talking about?
As I said in my post, I'm pretty sure transgenderism is not considered a mental disorder. The distress associated with a mismatch between gender and assigned sex is, and is in indeed treated as such - typically with therapy and/or transitioning.Original post by HeimIX
Its not that I wouldn't have compassion to one I don't really care about them. They live among us and thats fine, if I knew any in real life its just that id rather not get mixed up with them. I don't fudge with that trans/homo stuff
Can you explain why? How do you justify this sort of prejudice to yourself, let alone other people?
Original post by Implication
What mental disorder are you talking about? As I said in my post, I'm pretty sure transgenderism is not considered a mental disorder. The distress associated with a mismatch between gender and assigned sex is, and is in indeed treated as such - typically with therapy and/or transitioning.
As I said in my post, I'm pretty sure transgenderism is not considered a mental disorder. The distress associated with a mismatch between gender and assigned sex is, and is in indeed treated as such - typically with therapy and/or transitioning.Transitioning has no impact on the staggering suicide rates of people who assosiate with a different gender than their own - it is not an effective treatment. We need to stop pandering to these people because of 'muh feelings' and start actually helping these people instead of mutilating them. If we start to introduce such strong trans-friendly ideals into schools, children are taught that mental disorders like this are acceptable and you should embrace them. The bottom line is they shouldn't, children shouldn't be encouraged into accepting an almost 50% suicide rate because you might hurt someone's feelings.
Original post by Chaz W
Transitioning has no impact on the staggering suicide rates of people who assosiate with a different gender than their own - it is not an effective treatment. We need to stop pandering to these people because of 'muh feelings' and start actually helping these people instead of mutilating them. If we start to introduce such strong trans-friendly ideals into schools, children are taught that mental disorders like this are acceptable and you should embrace them. The bottom line is they shouldn't, children shouldn't be encouraged into accepting an almost 50% suicide rate because you might hurt someone's feelings.
Source?
But transitioning isn't meant to be a treatment for suicidal thoughts etc. anyway; it's meant to treat gender dysphoria. Using a secondary indicator such as suicide rate just obfuscates the issue.
Original post by Implication
Can you explain why? How do you justify this sort of prejudice to yourself, let alone other people?
I don't justify it, as stated; I don't really care. This is just the way I think. I to put it to back of my mind.
Original post by HeimIX
I don't justify it, as stated; I don't really care. This is just the way I think. I to put it to back of my mind.
If you can't justify your beliefs I wholeheartedly recommend you discard them
Original post by Implication
Source?
But transitioning isn't meant to be a treatment for suicidal thoughts etc. anyway; it's meant to treat gender dysphoria. Using a secondary indicator such as suicide rate just obfuscates the issue.
But transitioning isn't meant to be a treatment for suicidal thoughts etc. anyway; it's meant to treat gender dysphoria. Using a secondary indicator such as suicide rate just obfuscates the issue.
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
Original post by Implication
If you can't justify your beliefs I wholeheartedly recommend you discard them
Aye sir.
retty sure it P
Pretty sure it is an effective treatment? I'll find you some sources when I'm not on mobile if you want. When treatment is denied/has a long wait suicide/self harm rates are obviously going to go up. Telling.me that I'm fine as I am and to 'embrace' my feelings would probably have the opposite effect. Education like that wont stop the bad impulses that come as a result of dysphoria
Original post by Chaz W
Transitioning has no impact on the staggering suicide rates of people who assosiate with a different gender than their own - it is not an effective treatment. We need to stop pandering to these people because of 'muh feelings' and start actually helping these people instead of mutilating them. If we start to introduce such strong trans-friendly ideals into schools, children are taught that mental disorders like this are acceptable and you should embrace them. The bottom line is they shouldn't, children shouldn't be encouraged into accepting an almost 50% suicide rate because you might hurt someone's feelings.
Pretty sure it is an effective treatment? I'll find you some sources when I'm not on mobile if you want. When treatment is denied/has a long wait suicide/self harm rates are obviously going to go up. Telling.me that I'm fine as I am and to 'embrace' my feelings would probably have the opposite effect. Education like that wont stop the bad impulses that come as a result of dysphoria
Please could you point me to where they show that transitioning has no impact on suicide rates? On page 8, they explain precisely why they couldn't draw any conclusions of that sort:
The survey did not provide information about the timing of reported suicide attempts in relation to receiving transition-related health care, which precluded investigation of transition-related explanations for these patterns.
And again on page 15, they explicitly deny what you claim they have shown:
... the NTDS instrument did not include questions about the timing of suicide attempts relative to transition, and thus we were unable to determine whether suicidal behavior is significantly reduced following transition-related surgeries...
The fact they specified they couldn't determine a reduction would further discredit your conclusion, since your assumption is clearly contrary to what they expect.
Now, in the discussion on page 14, they actually give you an explanation for the higher rate of suicide among those who have undergone transitional surgery!
Significantly higher prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts was found among respondents who were classified as trans women (MTF) and trans men (FTM), based on their primary self-identifications. Since trans women and trans men are the groups within the overall transgender population most likely to need surgical care for transition, this may help to explain the high prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts we found among respondents who said they have had transition-related surgical procedures, compared to those who said they did not want transition-related surgery.
It's quite clear that they don't think the transition itself is responsible for the higher rate. In fact, in this extract they very strongly imply that surgical care for transition is beneficial, as can be seen from the emboldened text.
Later on in the report (page 15 again), they reference two other papers (Dixen et al (1984) and De Cuypere et al (2006)) which showed a significant reduction in suicidal behaviour after transitional surgery.
But none of this addresses the success of transition as a treatment for gender dysphoria anyway, which was my point.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by AlteredBoy
I'm talking in terms of choosing to identify as such.
Regardless, children typically don't know any better until well into puberty. Most children showing transgender behaviors actually cease to do so after a while. Many are simply acting out for attention, which I don't think warrants entertaining.
Original post by AlteredBoy
Transsexuals/transgenders form a very tiny portion of the population. I don't think it's in most school's budgets to construct new facilities for one or two students that may be having gender identity issues. There are often already neutral private facilities available for handicapped students which they could use, anyway.
Original post by AlteredBoy
Not even sure what you mean here. And most boys would be happy to see a little female skin...
Original post by Dandaman1
Not even sure what you mean here. And most boys would be happy to see a little female skin...
Clearly you have completely misunderstood what they meant by 'can't handle'.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Moonstruck16
(Edited)
Assuming this interpretation, he's countering his own point. If male changing rooms are unsuitable for girls identifying as boys because these kids are going to leer at them, they're better off in the female changing rooms (where they're supposed to be anyway).
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Dandaman1
(Edited)
Assuming this interpretation, he's countering his own point. If male changing rooms are unsuitable for girls identifying as boys because these kids are going to leer at them, they're better off in the female changing rooms (where they're supposed to be anyway).
Assuming this interpretation, he's countering his own point. If male changing rooms are unsuitable for girls identifying as boys because these kids are going to leer at them, they're better off in the female changing rooms (where they're supposed to be anyway).
Actually, I was talking in regards to uniform policies being biased in favour of males, as I guarantee females have more restrictions placed on them. I've heard countless times that a girl has been sent home from school because part of her shoulder/upper thigh is visible and it would distract males from learning.
Original post by AlteredBoy
Actually, I was talking in regards to uniform policies being biased in favour of males, as I guarantee females have more restrictions placed on them. I've heard countless times that a girl has been sent home from school because part of her shoulder/upper thigh is visible and it would distract males from learning.
My school is heavily sexist, towards males It is utter bs. they have a better policy than us, they can wear skirts but boys cant wear shorts in the summer so we are all super hot
Original post by AperfectBalance
My school is heavily sexist, towards males It is utter bs. they have a better policy than us, they can wear skirts but boys cant wear shorts in the summer so we are all super hot
We also have this problem. That many of us went to the head and complained about it the policy has changed. I suggest you try the same if its that bad?
Original post by AlteredBoy
We also have this problem. That many of us went to the head and complained about it the policy has changed. I suggest you try the same if its that bad?
Nope already tried, the girls are allowed to walk around our building but we cannot go around theirs unless we are escorted. the girls have chosen everything and made a mess of the prom, our committee that I am in the girls now joined and it has gone to the ****. they put signs around our school saying that all men are sexist. they held a assembly about feminism.
The girls have nearly ruined everything and every time we complain oh it is sexist
Okay, so this is kind of long, sorry.
Personally, I believe they should, yes. More needs to be done to protect trans and non binary students. They have a hard enough time as teenagers as it is, without making it more uncomfortable for them by forcing them to either out themselves (if they're dressing as their gender but have to go in the toilet of the sex they were born with, for example) or forcing them to not be who they are and express their gender.
I also think uniforms should be a) more comfortable for everyone, b) more 'liberal' and c) have more options for gender neutrality (ie shorts, skirts, trousers, non see through leggings being allowed etc). This is my ideal uniform policy that accommodates all genders, makes people more comfortable, accommodates different budgets and allows high schoolers to be a bit more modern while maintaining a uniform. It's just my take on what the best course of action would be:
Give all genders all of the following options.
Top half: A shirt and tie specific to the school or
A polo shirt specific to the school.
A jumper with the school logo (one colour for the majority, one colour for year 11 or equivalent) or
A blazer with the school logo
Bottom half:Always in black
Black trousers - in chosen fit, but not skin tight for practicality and for protection of all genders from bullying and harassment for appearance, because despite the fact it shouldn't, bullying and harassment does happen and we should be trying to prevent it in all ways we can, as education will not always have an impact.
Black skirt - in chosen fit, but not skin tight for the same reason. .
Black shorts - made with the school logo by the school shop in 2 fits (one more traditionally masculine, one more traditionally feminine - all genders can choose which they want to wear). Must be worn with the logo to prevent too much variation in uniform.
Black jeggings/stretchy trousers/leggings - okay, so hear me out here. some softer, slightly more informal trousers like the average jeggings or treggings, non see through, that are going to be more comfortable and look good with a polo shirt and or jumper.
PE kit:
One kit for all genders here. Student chooses. Either black leggings (non see through, with the logo on) or black tracksuit bottoms (plain), or black shorts in the summer (female identifying pupils may wear a black sports skirt over the shorts if they wish) with a sports polo shirt in the school's colours with the logo on, and a hoodie, either zip up or over the head, with the school logo on the back.
And what harm would it do to have All Gender bathrooms and changing rooms with cubicles *in addition to* the gendered changing rooms and bathrooms?
To all those speaking about the concerns with rape and sexual assault, I understand what you're saying. Aside from educating people with right from wrong surrounding consent, the toilets would have cubicles and no urinals, and the changing rooms would have cubicles (I think not having these is the single biggest downfall of most school changing rooms anyway) to add to privacy. In addition, perhaps a policy where any cis people wishing to use the changing rooms should have to gain parental permission to use them and be monitored (by having reviews of whether or not they should be allowed to continue using them every so often).
Alternatively, and I prefer this idea, you could just let trans people use the bathroom and changing rooms of their gender and provide cubicles in said changing rooms for everyone as well as a communal space, and lockers for people to keep their stuff in (which I am of the opinion should be done anyway). With regards to non binary people, either give them the choice of using the gendered changing rooms they feel best applies to them, or provide them with a third gender neutral changing room they can use with cubicles, and apply the same policy in terms of cis people getting permission to be allowed to use it, and give trans people the choice of whether they would like to use their gendered changing room/bathroom or the gender neutral one.
Personally, I believe they should, yes. More needs to be done to protect trans and non binary students. They have a hard enough time as teenagers as it is, without making it more uncomfortable for them by forcing them to either out themselves (if they're dressing as their gender but have to go in the toilet of the sex they were born with, for example) or forcing them to not be who they are and express their gender.
I also think uniforms should be a) more comfortable for everyone, b) more 'liberal' and c) have more options for gender neutrality (ie shorts, skirts, trousers, non see through leggings being allowed etc). This is my ideal uniform policy that accommodates all genders, makes people more comfortable, accommodates different budgets and allows high schoolers to be a bit more modern while maintaining a uniform. It's just my take on what the best course of action would be:
Give all genders all of the following options.
Top half: A shirt and tie specific to the school or
A polo shirt specific to the school.
A jumper with the school logo (one colour for the majority, one colour for year 11 or equivalent) or
A blazer with the school logo
Bottom half:Always in black
Black trousers - in chosen fit, but not skin tight for practicality and for protection of all genders from bullying and harassment for appearance, because despite the fact it shouldn't, bullying and harassment does happen and we should be trying to prevent it in all ways we can, as education will not always have an impact.
Black skirt - in chosen fit, but not skin tight for the same reason. .
Black shorts - made with the school logo by the school shop in 2 fits (one more traditionally masculine, one more traditionally feminine - all genders can choose which they want to wear). Must be worn with the logo to prevent too much variation in uniform.
Black jeggings/stretchy trousers/leggings - okay, so hear me out here. some softer, slightly more informal trousers like the average jeggings or treggings, non see through, that are going to be more comfortable and look good with a polo shirt and or jumper.
PE kit:
One kit for all genders here. Student chooses. Either black leggings (non see through, with the logo on) or black tracksuit bottoms (plain), or black shorts in the summer (female identifying pupils may wear a black sports skirt over the shorts if they wish) with a sports polo shirt in the school's colours with the logo on, and a hoodie, either zip up or over the head, with the school logo on the back.
And what harm would it do to have All Gender bathrooms and changing rooms with cubicles *in addition to* the gendered changing rooms and bathrooms?
To all those speaking about the concerns with rape and sexual assault, I understand what you're saying. Aside from educating people with right from wrong surrounding consent, the toilets would have cubicles and no urinals, and the changing rooms would have cubicles (I think not having these is the single biggest downfall of most school changing rooms anyway) to add to privacy. In addition, perhaps a policy where any cis people wishing to use the changing rooms should have to gain parental permission to use them and be monitored (by having reviews of whether or not they should be allowed to continue using them every so often).
Alternatively, and I prefer this idea, you could just let trans people use the bathroom and changing rooms of their gender and provide cubicles in said changing rooms for everyone as well as a communal space, and lockers for people to keep their stuff in (which I am of the opinion should be done anyway). With regards to non binary people, either give them the choice of using the gendered changing rooms they feel best applies to them, or provide them with a third gender neutral changing room they can use with cubicles, and apply the same policy in terms of cis people getting permission to be allowed to use it, and give trans people the choice of whether they would like to use their gendered changing room/bathroom or the gender neutral one.
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