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I need time dilation help please?

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Original post by AlbertXY
There is no difference,


I think we're going in circles!


Answer this , if you was on lets say Pluto and I on Earth and we both want to measure time, how do we get past the very very big issue , that no matter how small of a measurement we try to measure, we will only ever be recoding history and marking a place mark of history, we can't get past the issue of that anything past zero , is automatic by default a past event.


Why is that a problem?
Original post by Kyx
indeed

Now how would that be explained? @Peroxidation @Implication


I'm not quite sure what the question is. Does this help? http://www.askamathematician.com/2011/01/q-why-does-relativistic-length-contraction-lorentz-contraction-happen/
Reply 262


yes thx :smile:

That reminded me of the Jim Al-Khalili book :smile:
Reply 263
Original post by Implication
I think we're going in circles!




Why is that a problem?



Because imagine we have no clocks, no sundials, no caesium, how on Earth or anywhere in the Universe could we ever agree on a rate of time according to the present model and that time dilates and there is simultaneity?


We all could agree we need an increment of one, but also we must all agree that the increment of one is the same for all observers because of the very fact that anything after 0 is past tense.
We have to all agree that 0 moves forward and remains 0 because measuring it is past tense, 0 is never overtook in measurement.
Reply 264
Original post by Kyx
yes thx :smile:

That reminded me of the Jim Al-Khalili book :smile:


All observers see the lightning at the same time because they can see through space,
Reply 265
Original post by AlbertXY
All observers see the lightning at the same time because they can see through space,


time is relative
Original post by AlbertXY
Because imagine we have no clocks, no sundials, no caesium, how on Earth or anywhere in the Universe could we ever agree on a rate of time according to the present model and that time dilates and there is simultaneity?


Well, one could argue that simultaneity is an illusion based on SR because whether or not an observer sees two events occur at the same time depends on what velocity the observer has with respect to those events.


We all could agree we need an increment of one, but also we must all agree that the increment of one is the same for all observers because of the very fact that anything after 0 is past tense.


We don't all need to agree on it; we just need to have that we can all measure it. I may be in a different reference frame to you and so be measuring different time intervals, but I can still compute the time intervals in your frame.

Proper time is often used in this regard because all frames agree on it.


We have to all agree that 0 moves forward and remains 0 because measuring it is past tense, 0 is never overtook in measurement.


Well that's kind of arbitrary. Physics only ever depends on time intervals, not on absolute time. If we wanted we could label the current time as 5,977,468,202. Then everything before 5,977,468,202 would be the past, and everything after 5,977,468,202 the future. But we wouldn't repeatedly relabel the present as 5,977,468,202 (or 0). That wouldn't be very helpful, because then we wouldn't be able to measure any intervals. If we define t=0t=0 to correspond to the present now, the present in 1 second's time would be t=1st=1 \mathrm{s}. It wouldn't be very helpful to consider that t=0t=0 as well, because we know full well there is a second's difference!
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 267
Original post by Kyx
time is relative


Relative to what?
Reply 268
Original post by AlbertXY
Relative to what?


relative to your speed and/or location (gravity and the like)
Reply 269
Original post by Implication
Well, one could argue that simultaneity is an illusion based on SR because whether or not an observer sees two events occur at the same time depends on what velocity the observer has with respect to those events.




We don't all need to agree on it; we just need to have that we can all measure it. I may be in a different reference frame to you and so be measuring different time intervals, but I can still compute the time intervals in your frame.

Proper time is often used in this regard because all frames agree on it.




Well that's kind of arbitrary. Physics only ever depends on time intervals, not on absolute time. If we wanted we could label the current time as 5,977,468,202. Then everything before 5,977,468,202 would be the past, and everything after 5,977,468,202 the future. But we wouldn't repeatedly relabel the present as 5,977,468,202 (or 0). That wouldn't be very helpful, because then we wouldn't be able to measure any intervals. If we define t=0t=0 to correspond to the present now, the present in 1 second's time would be t=1st=1 \mathrm{s}. It wouldn't be very helpful to consider that t=0t=0 as well, because we know full well there is a second's difference!


But when you are making absolute space t=0 and relativistic space t=1 an interwoven space, it shows the true nature of the universe and before the big bang there was absolute n-dimensional space and the Universe is not expanding, it is simply objects moving away into more space.
Minkowski space time is not independent of matter, it is dependent to matter, the value of space time and an independent time is 0 , light propagating through space has 0 dimension, the singularity thing I mentioned is 0. I assure you it all fits and my universal model is very accurate and true.
Reply 270
Original post by Kyx
relative to your speed and/or location (gravity and the like)


So what is time?
Reply 271
Original post by AlbertXY
So what is time?


I have no idea, but we seem to be able to measure it quite accurately :smile:
Reply 272
Original post by Kyx
I have no idea, but we seem to be able to measure it quite accurately :smile:



So you measure something but have no idea what it is your are measuring?


You time a runner running around a track, do you think you are timing the runner?


or is the truth you are recording an amount of history of how long you stood observing for?
Reply 273
Original post by AlbertXY
So you measure something but have no idea what it is your are measuring?


You time a runner running around a track, do you think you are timing the runner?


or is the truth you are recording an amount of history of how long you stood observing for?


no idea
Reply 274
Original post by Kyx
no idea



An honest answer , well I have an idea that I am recording my own history , if the runner is recording there own history, then I am pretty sure we record at an equal rate and I am quite positive that the video cameras around the stadium will confirm this with play back.
Reply 275
Original post by AlbertXY
An honest answer , well I have an idea that I am recording my own history , if the runner is recording there own history, then I am pretty sure we record at an equal rate and I am quite positive that the video cameras around the stadium will confirm this with play back.


But that's the thing. If you and the runner both had a clock, they would be ticking at different rates.
Reply 276
Original post by Kyx
But that's the thing. If you and the runner both had a clock, they would be ticking at different rates.


And that has nothing to do with time.
Original post by AlbertXY
But when you are making absolute space t=0 and relativistic space t=1 an interwoven space, it shows the true nature of the universe


What do you mean? What are 'absolute space' and 'relativistic' space?


before the big bang there was absolute n-dimensional space and the Universe is not expanding, it is simply objects moving away into more space.


Well this beyond what I'm able to confirm from elementary principles alone, but there isn't much consensus in the scientific literature about what was before the big bang or if it even makes sense to talk of 'before' it!


Minkowski space time is not independent of matter, it is dependent to matter


Minkowski spacetime is independent of matter. By definition, it is is 4-dimensional manifold with a flat metric tensor ημν\eta_{\mu \nu} whose components are given by

(ημν)([br]1000[br]0100[br]0010[br]0001[br])(\eta_{\mu \nu}) \equiv \begin{pmatrix}[br] 1&0 &0& 0\\ [br] 0&-1 &0 &0 \\ [br] 0& 0 &-1 &0 \\ [br] 0& 0 &0 &-1 [br]\end{pmatrix}.

Nothing in this definition depends on matter. In general relativity, Minkowski spacetime is a solution to Einstein's equations for a matter-free, mass-free spacetime. If you have mass, your spacetime is not flat and cannot be Minkowski.


, the value of space time


Spacetime doesn't have a 'value'.


and an independent time is 0


What is an 'independent time'?


light propagating through space has 0 dimension, the singularity thing I mentioned is 0.


What do you mean?


I assure you it all fits and my universal model is very accurate and true.


Unfortunately I just don't believe you! Look, I know I've asked you 101 questions but there's no need for you to reply. It seems like what you're trying to do here is essentially reformulate the whole of physics in a completely different way. This can probably be done. For example, in his book Science Without Numbers, the philosopher Hartry Field reformulates most of Newtonian gravitation without using numbers. I suspect if there is any extra-terrestrial life out there in the universe, they will have ways of describing physical reality (physics) that look nothing like ours.

However, whether or not your formalism will be useful - and whether you'll succeed in making something consistent - is a very different matter. Some of the things you've said are flat out wrong, and some of them are so convoluted it's impossible for anyone to work out whether they have any merit. What I recommend you do is put your ideas temporarily aside, and enroll yourself on a higher education course. Physics with mathematics would probably be a good choice of course, and you should probably make sure you get to study some mathematical logic somewhere down the line if you intend to proceed with your 'research'. Chat with your professors about your ideas. Once you have the necessary tools and support that you need, then go back to your ideas properly. Formalise them, correct them, make them rigorous and, above all, make them comprehensible. Then send them off to a research journal. If what you say has merit, you might get lucky and get published. And if you really do successfully find some currently unknown holes in special/general relativity, people will start to take more notice.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by AlbertXY
And that has nothing to do with time.


... yes, it does
:dontknow:

Quite entertaining tbh

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