POLL: Views on transgender people

Poll

What are your views on transgender people?

A poll to find views on trans people

I am kinda curious on the whole matter. I understand that many trans people have the wrong brain thing, but how come studies have shown that schizophrenia is so high in trans people? How come some trans people decide to return to their initial gender?

I have no problem with trans people, I am just curious about those issues.

Reply 2

KingBradly

Original post by TercioOfParma

I don't have problem with them either, but I wish they would stop both making up science, and trying to pretend some science doesn't exist.

Reply 3

username1066741

The research is only just beginning in this area, but gender dysphoria is a recognised condition with the likely source being located in the structure and make up of the brain. Sex and gender are different and don't always match up, as sex is binary (with the occasional hermaphrodite) whilst gender is a spectrum. And even if there wasn't any scientific evidence, what's the harm in letting people identify as what they want?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 4

Moonstruck16

Waiting for 'Paul' to turn up with his usual 💩💩💩💩

As for me, I've never personally met anyone who is transgender but my friends little brother is in the process of transitioning (F to M), and I wish him the best of luck with life. Their family is amazingly supportive and considering what others have to go through, he's very lucky.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 5

ThatOldGuy

Original post by Toughtee

The research is on just beginning in this area, but gender dysphoria is a recognised condition with the likely source being located in the structure and make up of the brain. Sex and gender are different and don't always match up, as sex is binary (with the occasional hermaphrodite) whilst gender is a spectrum. And even if there wasn't any scientific evidence, what's the harm in letting people identify as what they want?

That's ultimately the question. Who am I to tell someone they can't put on a pair of pasties and thigh highs?

Buuuut... Attempted suicide rates among transgendered individuals is really high, especially in post-op transgendered individuals is obscenely high.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

So: How do I feel? I think the science is out right now on transgenderism and, until we have more evidence, it would probably be safer to deny it in the same sense that we deny those with Body Integrity Identity Disorder(The feeling that you were born with too many limbs, or that you should have always been disabled) access to surgery to maim their various body-parts.

On the other hand, once the surgery is done, all you can do is support the person as best you can. It's too late for regrets at that point.

I suspect that in perhaps a hundred years or so, we'll be looked at with horror for our actions in this in the same way we look at the practice of lobotomization as horrible.

That is what I'd say if asked(Such as in this thread), but if not asked, I will keep my mouth shut because it not only will not help the situation(Anyone who isn't open to the idea won't suddenly think I'm wrong) and will simply draw me in to a pointless argument.

Reply 6

ThatOldGuy

Original post by Mathemagicien

Do you mean, in the sense that we are 'treating' people with gender issues crudely, surgically, rather than getting to the root of the problem, which is in mental health?

In the same sense that slicing out bits of brain is not a moral or effective method of treating people unhappy with their current situation in life, neither is lopping off any other bits of the body.

If it turns out it -is- a mental disorder, we're just acting as enablers and maiming people(Which results in very high suicide rates amongst post-ops transgendered individuals). If it -isn't- a mental disorder, then we're doing something horribly wrong which is resulting in very high suicide rates.

Reply 7

username1066741

Original post by ThatOldGuy

Full article was hidden behind a pay wall so I couldn't read it, but:

1) Many trans people choose to stay pre-op, so if it is the surgery that is the main contributing factor of suicide then this could be considered an option (with the pros and cons being explained to anyone thinking about the procedure).

2) I'd put money on the guess that a large number of the suicides amongst transsexuals are caused by society; from discrimination, bullying, stigma, etc. Many young trans people (often high profile news stories) take their owns lives rather than come out and face their families and wider society. So I feel that if we have a cultural shift towards acceptance, whilst providing more support and education, the suicide rate would fall.

Reply 8

username1066741

Original post by Mathemagicien

In the UK, you have to pay for their surgery :wink:

Also, lots of problems regarding toilets. Transgender people (specifically, male to female) will cause a lot of fuss, and perhaps even require entirely separate toilets to accommodate them.

Lots of problems regarding passports, airport security

Lots of problems regarding equality. If a company is not fulfilling its quota of blacks and women, what is the harm in their white male employees simply identify as black women? Does the problem (if it exists) go away?

That's probably a discussion for a different time (what healthcare the state pays for and what it does not), as there are many things I can think of that individuals shouldn't be charged for but are, and vice versa.

The toilet thing to me is a difficult one, but I think some people have this stigma that all trans people are unsafe and will attempt nefarious action if they are allowed into bathrooms with people who they think are the opposite sex.

What sort of passport problems do you mean?

And I don't think employing someone simply because they fit a demographic rather than that they're good at their job is a very good business practice. But I can see that the quotas are usually just trying to fix institutional racism/bigotry, so I can see the argument for them.

Reply 9

ThatOldGuy

Original post by Toughtee

Absolutely - It could be that they think that once they get the surgery, their lives will simply be devoid of prejudice. When they find out this isn't so, they're overcome with grief.

But we just don't know.

Until the day we do, I'm just going to be more concerned with how I dress than other people do and will give my opinion on things like this when it's asked, but generally just leave other people's business alone.

Reply 10

username521617

Hmm, is gender dysphoria and transsexualism a genuine phenomenon? Sure, there's psychiatric and medical evidence in support of this. Is transformative surgery an affective way of treating it? As another poster has said, we don't cut body parts off people who want to be disabled or believe their limbs are not their own. There is a lack of high-quality evidence showing surgery is effective in the long term, which professionals admit. There needs to be further study on the sex change front. Maybe one day we'll find an effective way to treat them without altering their bodies (which are actually perfectly healthy - the problem is in their heads).

Transgenderism on the social side of things, however, I feel is often more of a fad. People want to express themselves differently these days, adolescents cry out for attention, and popular culture, especially for millenials, is moving in a direction that enables or even rewards this. But these people don't have mental health issues. They don't see psychiatrists. In all likelihood, most of these people won't be "gender fluid" or "gender non-conforming" by the time they're thirty.

Reply 11

Moonstruck16

Original post by Mathemagicien

Btw, I feel we should distinguish between adult and child transgenderism.

I'm comfortable for adults to change gender, even if it may or may not be the best option for them

I'm very uncomfortable with kids as young as four changing gender
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/05/children-seeking-gender-identity-advice-sees-100-increase-nhs

As much as I hate to say it, this is the view I have too.

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Reply 12

BubbleBoobies

I am completely tolerant and accepting of trans people in that they are making themselves happy so I have nothing but support for people's self-regarding happiness

however, gender is a biologically determined fact - if you have a penis, then by definition, your "gender" is male
that's different from a person's sex in that sex can somewhat be understood to be a socially defined concept
but gender is purely scientific and empirical. women who say "I feel like I have a male brain" - they accidentally admit that "gender" IS something natural, if they're admitting that there's such a thing as a male and female brain not based on sociologies. also, women who want to transition into men who take hormones to trigger these changes - if they really were born as the wrong gender, why would they need hormones when their "male" brains would already be making these hormones?

so in this sense, saying "I am a woman" when you're empirically a male, is like saying "I am a submarine" when you're empirically a human.
if you say "my sex is male" then fine, but that's different to gender. mutilating yourself isn't going to change that. you'll just be a mutilated member of the gender you were "born with at birth"
I mean, if a person can say "I'm a man" when they have a vagina, does that mean I can say "I'm black" when I'm white, or "I'm a jew" (ethnically) when I'm literally not? it's also kind of the same case with age - age should be understood as an objective concept, but there is now the case of the man who feels that he is a 6 year old girl, so people have to fall in line and say "yes she is".

I'm only willing to go along with something "progressive" when it makes sense - and this is an example of when PC doesn't make sense
I will advocate for the rights of all individuals, e.g. gay people, incest couples, polygamous couples, polyamorous couples, transvestites, transsexuals, and of course transgenders. but I won't say that (as a matter of fact) transgendered people are literally the gender that they are representing themselves as.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 13

Moonstruck16

Original post by Mathemagicien

You hate to say it because its the same view as me, or because its not a politically correct view? :tongue:

Because as much as I want to say that kids should have a say, I know that there is so much that they are just not aware of at that age, and I feel sorry for the ones that are aware because there are certain things that are just best left until puberty and kinda takes away a lot of the innocence of childhood.

I don't believe kids should have hormone therapy etc apart for medical reasons, such as Turners Syndrome, gland issues etc.

EDIT: All of that may not have been clear. Basically what I'm saying is kids should be kids (especially as young as four). There should be more education about this topic but this should be done when they are a lot older. I couldn't care less if somebody is transgender. That won't stop me being their friend.

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(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 14

Copperknickers

Original post by BubbleBoobies

Reply 15

BubbleBoobies

Original post by Copperknickers

You have those words the wrong way round, but otherwise I agree.

I thought "gender" was your biology and sex was the socially conceived identity surrounding it...? are you sure? i.e. transsexuals aren't necessarily those that have had surguries to "transition", whereas transgendered individuals have?

edit: wait, nope, you're 100% correct - my bad

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 16

cherryred90s

I agree that trans people are a different gender, but they cannot possibly be a different sex.

Reply 17

Chris-Graham

Well I'm completely accepting of transgender people. However, the thing I think is bad is that there is so much pressure to be either male or female, and some people can't just accept that there are feminine men and masculine women. So yes, if it makes you happy, go for it, but don't feel pressured into presenting as a woman just because you might be a girly guy