Switzerland Suspends Citizenship process for Muslim Family
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Original post by Al-farhan
Perhaps she should fill the hurt feelings
No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
That is beyond stupid.
No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
That is beyond stupid.
It's about sexism and treating women differently because of something they can not change (something that also leads to mass murder and death)
That you defend sexism but not racism tells me you are most probably a male and most probably Asian. (or an Asian female who knows her place)
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by BaconandSauce
It's about sexism and treating women differently because of something they can not change (something that also leads to mass murder and death)
That you defend sexism but not racism tells me you are most probably a male and most probably Asian. (or an Asian female who know her place)
That you defend sexism but not racism tells me you are most probably a male and most probably Asian. (or an Asian female who know her place)
No honestly though what is it you want? Shall we fulfil your urge to accept your bang out of order view? Not shaking a women's hand is sexist? Give me a break.
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Original post by Al-farhan
Perhaps she should fill the hurt feelings
No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
That is beyond stupid.
No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
That is beyond stupid.
Would you be sneering at her feelings/the fact that she was treated differently because of her sex if she was a Muslim woman?
I suspect not.Original post by Leukocyte
Not shaking a women's hand is sexist?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Leukocyte
No honestly though what is it you want? Shall we fulfil your urge to accept your bang out of order view? Not shaking a women's hand is sexist? Give me a break.
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Took a while to decipher your post and it's fulfill not fulfil and it's you're not your
But yes refusing to shake a persons hand specifically because of their sex is sexism
Just like refusing to shake the hand of a black person because of their race is racism.
Original post by BaconandSauce
The women who's hand is refused is being hurt she is being treated differently to what she can normally expect and even worse by an immigrant who wants to join her culture and reap the benefits that that entails
and yes cultures are cultures and he want's to join a different one no on is forcing him this is his choice. He has though through his own twatishness failed the simplest of tests and this has had a negative impact on his choice
But this is his fault and his alone
he's had 15 years in the country and still he acts like this.
A simple hypothetical question for you
I am an immigrant who comes from a country where racism is the norm. I then move to the UK for 15 years and still maintain my racist attitudes. How long do you think it is acceptable for me to continue being a racist in these circumstances?
Say for example should I refuse to allow my children to be educated by a black teacher? How long should my racism be allowed?
and yes cultures are cultures and he want's to join a different one no on is forcing him this is his choice. He has though through his own twatishness failed the simplest of tests and this has had a negative impact on his choice
But this is his fault and his alone
he's had 15 years in the country and still he acts like this.
A simple hypothetical question for you
I am an immigrant who comes from a country where racism is the norm. I then move to the UK for 15 years and still maintain my racist attitudes. How long do you think it is acceptable for me to continue being a racist in these circumstances?
Say for example should I refuse to allow my children to be educated by a black teacher? How long should my racism be allowed?
The woman has experienced one of life's little injuries. However, she does not seem at risk of lasting phycological injury or physical injury, coming from a place of social inclusion (as you mentioned, this is not a deviation from what she normally would expect so it not going to be particularly significant). She is not being 'othered'. and has simply encountered a small cultural clash. It would be very surprising if she were incapable of recognising this however if she took it personally I'm sure their would be others on hand to explain the matter to her.
As for the father, what does he really want? Do he actually want to become Swiss or would he rather so many things hadn't happened to him and that he wasn't in the situation he is in today. Perhaps he is emotionally stuck and currently unable to make informed decisions. In that case what would be most helpful in overcoming this would be positive experience building of life in Switzerland. People could get involved and help him with this.
In answer to your hypothetical case, you would need to define racism more clearly for me to give a reply. I would point out though that many British citizens are racist - in fact, racism can be found in cultures all over the world. It is not culturally exclusive and has a lot to do with personal phycology, I think. In this case clearly the way to proceed would be to ignore the parent's demand to the school.
Original post by BaconandSauce
Took a while to decipher your post and it's fulfill not fulfil and it's you're not your
But yes refusing to shake a persons hand specifically because of their sex is sexism
Just like refusing to shake the hand of a black person because of their race is racism.
But yes refusing to shake a persons hand specifically because of their sex is sexism
Just like refusing to shake the hand of a black person because of their race is racism.
Alright grammar Nazi. I'm on my phone.
Not really. There are other reasons too which you wish to ignore. If I was to shake hands with anyone I can tell you for certain it would take a U turn.
That's irrelavent in this case.
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Original post by BaconandSauce
It's about sexism and treating women differently because of something they can not change (something that also leads to mass murder and death)
That you defend sexism but not racism tells me you are most probably a male and most probably Asian. (or an Asian female who knows her place)
That you defend sexism but not racism tells me you are most probably a male and most probably Asian. (or an Asian female who knows her place)
Oh come of it! I am a woman and do not consider this to be an issue of sexism and it is not going to affect the fate of women at all - rather it's a matter of cultural assimilation. The practice of refusing to shake hands with women is not exactly going to catch on in Switzerland and only if it started to would it become a gender issue. It may be a sexist incident but it is not a sexist issue.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Hydeman
If a handshake is refused purely on grounds of her sex (i.e. the person in question would refuse to shake any woman's hand, not just this specific woman), then yes, it is.
If a handshake is refused purely on grounds of her sex (i.e. the person in question would refuse to shake any woman's hand, not just this specific woman), then yes, it is.
I wouldn't find it sexist if a guy refused to shake my hand. I'd respect that and move on. Don't know why you are all harping on about it.
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Original post by Mathemagicien
Source?
Well i stand corrected partly wife beating is actually in the Qu'ran:
Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.
Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).
Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" Muhammad's own wife complained of the abuse that the women of her religion suffered relative to other women.
Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's fathers-in-law (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.
Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings in a Muslim marriage are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.
Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim thinks he is getting a virgin, then finds out that she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she delivers the child.
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969 - Requires that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.
Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525) - [Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"
Child Marriage: There are many accounts of Muhammad marrying Aisha at 6, Muhammad is the example of man, you can't well play 'it was his time and now its unacceptable card' there is clearly a justified precedent for it in this context
Original post by isitisisitis
The woman has experienced one of life's little injuries. However, she does not seem at risk of lasting phycological injury or physical injury, coming from a place of social inclusion (as you mentioned, this is not a deviation from what she normally would expect so it not going to be particularly significant). She is not being 'othered'. and has simply encountered a small cultural clash. It would be very surprising if she were incapable of recognising this however if she took it personally I'm sure their would be others on hand to explain the matter to her.
As for the father, what does he really want? Do he actually want to become Swiss or would he rather so many things hadn't happened to him and that he wasn't in the situation he is in today. Perhaps he is emotionally stuck and currently unable to make informed decisions. In that case what would be most helpful in overcoming this would be positive experience building of life in Switzerland. People could get involved and help him with this.
In answer to your hypothetical case, you would need to define racism more clearly for me to give a reply. I would point out though that many British citizens are racist - in fact, racism can be found in cultures all over the world. It is not culturally exclusive and has a lot to do with personal phycology, I think. In this case clearly the way to proceed would be to ignore the parent's demand to the school.
As for the father, what does he really want? Do he actually want to become Swiss or would he rather so many things hadn't happened to him and that he wasn't in the situation he is in today. Perhaps he is emotionally stuck and currently unable to make informed decisions. In that case what would be most helpful in overcoming this would be positive experience building of life in Switzerland. People could get involved and help him with this.
In answer to your hypothetical case, you would need to define racism more clearly for me to give a reply. I would point out though that many British citizens are racist - in fact, racism can be found in cultures all over the world. It is not culturally exclusive and has a lot to do with personal phycology, I think. In this case clearly the way to proceed would be to ignore the parent's demand to the school.
I see a lot of excuses but no real insights and no it's not a culture clash it would be if he didn't want to become part of their culture but that's not the case
Andy you're making up a lot about this man none have anything to do with the facts but rather an idea you seem to wish were the case (the clue is the fact he has explained why he won't allow his male children to shake the hands of women) not some imagined hardship he has previously been subjected to.
It really is quite simple they have rules he doesn't want to comply with yet still want to become a citizen and I'm glad we are starting to see issues like this being highlighted and talked about as it seems to be one of the last taboos (do we want people to become citizens of our countries who can't even show people who already are respect.)
But yes the father wants to become Swiss given he moved to the country 15 years ago and claimed asylum so you can't really blame him being there on the current conflict.
But it's a simple hypothetical and that you are unwilling to answer shows a double standard at play
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Leukocyte
I wouldn't find it sexist if a guy refused to shake my hand.
The definition of sexism is not derived from how you, specifically, would react to a given situation.
Original post by Leukocyte
I wouldn't find it sexist if a guy refused to shake my hand. I'd respect that and move on. Don't know why you are all harping on about it.
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Are you female?
Original post by isitisisitis
Oh come of it! I am a woman and do not consider this to be an issue of sexism and it is not going to affect the fate of women at all - rather it's a matter of cultural assimilation. The practice of refusing to shake hands with women is not exactly going to catch on in Switzerland and only if it started to would it become a gender issue. It may be a sexist incident but it is not a sexist issue.
You don't get to decide what is or isn't sexist for other people
But how would you react if people refused to shake your hand because of the colour of your skin?
Original post by Hydeman
The definition of sexism is not derived from how you, specifically, would react to a given situation.
Ignoring the rest. I wonder why. To be truthfully honest no one really cares if the were refused a handshake.
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Original post by Leukocyte
. If I was to shake hands with anyone I can tell you for certain it would take a U turn.
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And in English?
Original post by Leukocyte
Ignoring the rest. I wonder why. To be truthfully honest no one really cares if the were refused a handshake.
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I would as it would be showing me disrespect (so your 'no one' argument is clearly and demonstrably false)
Original post by Leukocyte
No honestly though what is it you want? Shall we fulfil your urge to accept your bang out of order view? Not shaking a women's hand is sexist? Give me a break.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Why isnt it sexist? The reason they wont shake hands is based on their sex? Albeit its based on their religion. Uts fine if they wnat to discriminate against women, its also fine if the Swiss decide they dont approve and dont want them as citizens.
sexismˈsɛksɪz(ə)m/nounnoun: sexism
1.
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex
Original post by Al-farhan
Perhaps she should fill the hurt feelings
No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
That is beyond stupid.
No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
That is beyond stupid.
Off topic.
This is a very neat form, maybe the muslim who ate a sausage roll should fill it too
Original post by Leukocyte
Ignoring the rest. I wonder why. To be truthfully honest no one really cares if the were refused a handshake.
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In this case the Swiss do and they find it relevant for all the reaons previously explained on this thread about principle, sexism and willingness to integrate. If you arent willing to integrate, then why ask to join?
Original post by BaconandSauce
I see a lot of excuses but no real insights and no it's not a culture clash it would be if he didn't want to become part of their culture but that's not the case
Andy ou're making up a lot about this man none have anything to do with the facts but rather an idea you seem to wish were the case (the clue is the fact he has explained why he won't allow his male children to shake the hands of women) not some imagined hardship he has previously been subjected to.
It really is quite simple they have rules he doesn't want to comply with yet still want to become a citizen and I'm glad we are starting to see issues like this being highlighted and talked about as it seems to be one of the last taboos (do we want people to become citizens of our countries who can't even show people who already are respect.)
But yes the father wants to become Swiss given he moved to the country 15 years ago and claimed asylum so you can't really blame him being there on the current conflict.
But it's a simple hypothetical and that you are unwilling to answer shows a double standard at play
Andy ou're making up a lot about this man none have anything to do with the facts but rather an idea you seem to wish were the case (the clue is the fact he has explained why he won't allow his male children to shake the hands of women) not some imagined hardship he has previously been subjected to.
It really is quite simple they have rules he doesn't want to comply with yet still want to become a citizen and I'm glad we are starting to see issues like this being highlighted and talked about as it seems to be one of the last taboos (do we want people to become citizens of our countries who can't even show people who already are respect.)
But yes the father wants to become Swiss given he moved to the country 15 years ago and claimed asylum so you can't really blame him being there on the current conflict.
But it's a simple hypothetical and that you are unwilling to answer shows a double standard at play
I'm exercising my social imagination in order to promote empathy and insight into the father's situation. I'm not saying that what I described is conclusively the case, just that there are many possible factors at play. The fact that he claimed asylum is a clue that he has suffered serious adversity and should be taken seriously before dismissing him as the man that cried wolf. We know that many countries in the Middle East have been war striken in the last fifteen years so depending on where he came from there may be serious contextual information to suggest the veracity of his claim.
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