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Why do some English people still look down on Ireland?
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It isn't genuinely religiously motivated as such, more like old hatreds being instilled by older generations into their kids in deprived areas under the excuse of religion, with segregated schools being full of people who have been similarly poorly influenced by their bigoted parents and communities. Actual religion doesn't come into it much. It's all just entrenched bigotry going back generations. It won't change until schools are integrated properly.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by PaulACP
It isn't genuinely religiously motivated as such, more like old hatreds being instilled by older generations into their kids in deprived areas under the excuse of religion, with segregated schools being full of people who have been similarly poorly influenced by their bigoted parents and communities. Actual religion doesn't come into it much. It's all just entrenched bigotry going back generations. It won't changed until schools are integrated properly.
I know, that many of those that would self identify themselves as Irish would be catholic and many Protestants would self identify as British, this allows people to make gross generalizations about their political views, ie,
you are Catholic > You are Irish > You are nationalist that wants separation from the UK and unification of Ireland.
Likewise with being Protestant > British > want NI to be ruled by the queen.
There is no religious motivations at all, this is where the bigotry stems from in the parents. And we can both see that this train of thought was outdated when it was first thought up, it's asinine.
This genius from Manchester thinks that the troubles are caused by religious nutjobs killing each other in the name of Jesus, while also claiming to be some sort of authority on the issue.........kinda funny.
Original post by HanSoloLuck
make ad hominem jabs at people who don't share the same views as you.
Pot kettle black.
First, you have narrowed what I said. This isn't only about nationalist terrorism nor is it only about motivation.
The Catholics' history of being a victim of religious discrimination is part of the root of the troubles and indeed today's conflict. Religion has been a significant part of identity in Christian history; indeed they are inseparable in the context of 17th Century Britain where divides were caused based on religious belief.
Of course the conflict has adapted - religion is less relevant today and thus the conflict has become as much a symptom of social inequality, an excuse for rebellion and a medium through which to express political disatisfaction as a distaste in an opposing church and their history. When you say the NI conflict is only political you need to think about where these political views come from. Religious divide in NI is not simply the divide of political ideologies under religious markers, it is the belief in different schools of Christianity that influenced differing social and political opinions. There is a chicken and egg element to the debate here which is why I think it is wrong to call the conflict strictly political or strictly religious. It's a religious conflict with political aims or a political conflict with religious roots.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by macromicro
None of that regurgitation refutes the fact that thousands of religious parades occur. Whether they are contentious or not is beside the point - they have a strong influence on others and sustain the conflict indirectly and directly.
People choose to take offence of parades on both sides yes. However, that is the persons choice and no one can stop them taking offence.
However, most of the trouble concerning parades takes place in the greater Belfast area. The rest of the country is largely unaffected by violence concerning parades.
However, although many Protestant orders and Catholic orders are heavily connected to the churches. They mainly serve to parade to commemorate historic events.
Furthermore, the Halloween Carnival and other parades of the like (eg Gay Pride) serve no religious affiliation whatsoever yet are included in the parades statistic.
Furthermore, protest marches are also factored into that total.
The vast majority of people across NI take no offence to parades and are indifferent to them. They just get on with their lives.
More than anywhere else in the UK. .
Nowhere else in the UK is the same as NI. You can't compare an apple to an orange and expect them to be the same.
NI has its problems. Yes they seem big in comparison to somewhere like Wales. But Northern Ireland is steeped in divisive history so obviously there is still some repercussions of said history. The same is true of South Africa.
It was a series of devastating riots only four years ago and highlighted how severe the problem still is. .
So one occasion of rioting highlighted how severe the problem is every single day?
That's like saying the same of the London riots.
Contrary to your claim, rioting is a sporadic occurrence here. Moreover, when there is riots a lot of the time its communities fighting among themselves and not unionist/nationalist conflict.
You keep comparing everything to the troubles when I have never done so. All I have done is describe the security threats that PSNI have to deal with today relative to the rest of the UK's forces, which are completely different. .
Because the security issues are a lasting legacy of the troubles. No other UK country went through what NI did so its common sense that they don't have to deal with a legacy.
Did you even fully read that article? It shows the increase in integrated education which has continued to increase since that article was written 4 years ago.
I'm not saying that every single school is now mixed but things are changing.
I taught in a Catholic school this year. Over 6 of my RE classes of roughly 25 each I had 8 COI girls, 3 Methodist and 7 of no religious what so ever. Further to that I also taught a number of Muslim and Jewish girls.
I went to an Integrated school where it was 50%ish Catholic, 45%ish Protestant and 5%ish 'other'.
The people in Northern Ireland are changing and so is the societal norms.
Someone like you who stereotypes without sufficient experience cannot speak for Northern Ireland,
Belfast is not cheaper than Manchester by £8,000 per year. Not even close. I lived in Belfast now I live in Manchester so I have a fairly good idea. .
I'm not educated in economics so I can't really argue with this as I don't have the knowledge.
Translation: you're an indoctrinated Christian and this bias and self-delusion means you don't understand the damage that your religion has done to your own country.
Are you against abortion and same-sex marriage?
Are you against abortion and same-sex marriage?
I am a Christian by choice. My mother raised me with awareness of the Christian faith but never forced me. I took my confirmation at 20 by my own choice. I'm in no way indoctrinated.
The majority of people in Northern Ireland are Christian. And so what? It is THEIR choice. Not some internet know it alls like you.
Are you now going to make assumptions that I am against both of those things now because I've said I'm Christian?
Original post by macromicro
Pot kettle black.
First, you have narrowed what I said. This isn't only about nationalist terrorism nor is it only about motivation.
The Catholics' history of being a victim of religious discrimination is part of the root of the troubles and indeed today's conflict. Religion has been a significant part of identity in Christian history; indeed they are inseparable in the context of 17th Century Britain where divides were caused based on religious belief.
Of course the conflict has adapted - religion is less relevant today and thus the conflict has become as much a symptom of social inequality, an excuse for rebellion and a medium through which to express political disatisfaction as a distaste in an opposing church and their history. When you say the NI conflict is only political you need to think about where these political views come from. Religious divide in NI is not simply the divide of political ideologies under religious markers, it is the belief in different schools of Christianity that influenced differing social and political opinions. There is a chicken and egg element to the debate here which is why I think it is wrong to call the conflict strictly political or strictly religious. It's a religious conflict with political aims or a political conflict with religious roots.
First, you have narrowed what I said. This isn't only about nationalist terrorism nor is it only about motivation.
The Catholics' history of being a victim of religious discrimination is part of the root of the troubles and indeed today's conflict. Religion has been a significant part of identity in Christian history; indeed they are inseparable in the context of 17th Century Britain where divides were caused based on religious belief.
Of course the conflict has adapted - religion is less relevant today and thus the conflict has become as much a symptom of social inequality, an excuse for rebellion and a medium through which to express political disatisfaction as a distaste in an opposing church and their history. When you say the NI conflict is only political you need to think about where these political views come from. Religious divide in NI is not simply the divide of political ideologies under religious markers, it is the belief in different schools of Christianity that influenced differing social and political opinions. There is a chicken and egg element to the debate here which is why I think it is wrong to call the conflict strictly political or strictly religious. It's a religious conflict with political aims or a political conflict with religious roots.
You do realise that the person who set up the IPP who started the home rule for Ireland fight was Protestant?
And that many historic Irish Nationalists were Protestant?
No religious conflict. Its always been political.
Original post by macromicro
Pot kettle black.
First, you have narrowed what I said. This isn't only about nationalist terrorism nor is it only about motivation.
The Catholics' history of being a victim of religious discrimination is part of the root of the troubles and indeed today's conflict. Religion has been a significant part of identity in Christian history; indeed they are inseparable in the context of 17th Century Britain where divides were caused based on religious belief.
Of course the conflict has adapted - religion is less relevant today and thus the conflict has become as much a symptom of social inequality, an excuse for rebellion and a medium through which to express political disatisfaction as a distaste in an opposing church and their history. When you say the NI conflict is only political you need to think about where these political views come from. Religious divide in NI is not simply the divide of political ideloeogies under religious markers, it is the belief in different schools of Christianity that influenced differeing social and political opinions. There is a chicken and egg element to the debate here which is why I think it is wrong to call the conflict strictly political or strictly religious. It's a religious conflict with political aims or a political conflict with religious roots.
First, you have narrowed what I said. This isn't only about nationalist terrorism nor is it only about motivation.
The Catholics' history of being a victim of religious discrimination is part of the root of the troubles and indeed today's conflict. Religion has been a significant part of identity in Christian history; indeed they are inseparable in the context of 17th Century Britain where divides were caused based on religious belief.
Of course the conflict has adapted - religion is less relevant today and thus the conflict has become as much a symptom of social inequality, an excuse for rebellion and a medium through which to express political disatisfaction as a distaste in an opposing church and their history. When you say the NI conflict is only political you need to think about where these political views come from. Religious divide in NI is not simply the divide of political ideloeogies under religious markers, it is the belief in different schools of Christianity that influenced differeing social and political opinions. There is a chicken and egg element to the debate here which is why I think it is wrong to call the conflict strictly political or strictly religious. It's a religious conflict with political aims or a political conflict with religious roots.
I'm not narrowing what you posted. What you said was narrow and now you are expanding it something it wasn't. You're squirming and flip flopping.
You said the terrorism was religiously motivated, that's what you said. You never mentioned any sort of political dynamic to the situation, calling it a religious war and religiously motivated.
Now you're saying that you were being somewhat historically metaphorical in your previous statement, as religion caused the divide centuries ago so ergo it caused and motivates the political terrorism today.
It's weak sauce and you know it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Frostyjoe
It's quite comical actually. Ireland isn't that different to England, I don't know where this view comes from.
It's quite comical actually. Ireland isn't that different to England, I don't know where this view comes from.
These days I don't think English people do look down on the Irish. But up until even 20 or 30 years ago, there still was substantial prejudice and I think I can identify four particular areas that promoted this view.
First, from the 12th century onwards when the English crown commenced its conquest of Ireland, the native Irish were viewed as being quite primitive and superstitious. Their culture was perhaps closer to its iron-age roots than were the Anglo-Normans who came to Ireland and whose culture was somewhat more evolved (they knew how to build cathedrals, they had a sophisticated legal system, etc) whereas Ireland was more tribal.
Second, Ireland was viewed with some contempt from around the English reformation onwards as they were predominantly Catholic, and Catholics were viewed as superstitious (their obsession with saints and miracles, etc) and so this underlined that view of the Irish as being backward. The Irish were also a turbulent subject people and rebellions frequently had to be put down, thus they were viewed as wilfull and stubborn savages.
Third, from around the 19th century (and continuing even to today) many Irish immigrants started travelling to mainland Britain for work. Many Irish immigrants worked as labourers and had a somewhat itinerant lifestyle. Their manners were rough and lacked the refinement of England, they might spend the money they earned as builders on drink and suchlike. You might compare the view of the Irish in the 19th century perhaps to the way gypsies are viewed today.
Finally, after the Irish uprisings and independence from the 1910s-1930s, there was a sense of belligerence between England and Ireland. And then when the troubles started in the 1960s/1970s and we saw Irish Republican Army terrorists murdering British soldiers in Northern Ireland, setting off bombs in central London, firing mortars at No.10 Downing Street from just a few blocks away (and almost hitting the Cabinet meeting room whilst the cabinet was in session... the windows were smashed by the force of the blast)... these incidents along with the perceptions of Irish "navvies" and builders, and the vestiges of the historical views of the superstitious, almost tribal, "Papist" (meaning Catholic) Irish solidified as an overall negative perception.
But I'd say since the Good Friday Accords and peace in Northern Ireland, and since Ireland managed to find its own way to have a modern prosperous economy and evolved from its agrarian base to a service/information economy, a fellow member of the EU, and as the memories of the Troubles and the historical chauvinist and religious views against the Irish faded, so too has the prejudice. I think most people in England are somewhat fond of the Irish. These days it's more like a sibling rivalry (like England and Australia's relationship). We tease each other with reference to supposed national stereotypical traits (the Irish are heavy drinkers and very religious, the English are cold and unemotional etc). I think this trend toward warm and fond feelings will only increase over time
Original post by HanSoloLuck
I'm not narrowing what you posted. What you said was narrow and now you are expanding it something it wasn't. You're squirming and flip flopping.
You said the terrorism was religiously motivated, that's what you said. You never mentioned any sort of political dynamic to the situation, calling it a religious war and religiously motivated.
Now you're saying that you were being somewhat historically metaphorical in your previous statement, as religion caused the divide centuries ago so ergo it caused and motivates the political terrorism today.
It's weak sauce and you know it.
You said the terrorism was religiously motivated, that's what you said. You never mentioned any sort of political dynamic to the situation, calling it a religious war and religiously motivated.
Now you're saying that you were being somewhat historically metaphorical in your previous statement, as religion caused the divide centuries ago so ergo it caused and motivates the political terrorism today.
It's weak sauce and you know it.
There is no metaphor (do you know what that word means?) and I haven't changed anything. I have said there are elements of both factors to both you and l'insegnante repeatedly due to the synonymous nature of religion, politics and identity in NI.
Original post by BeastOfSyracuse
These days it's more like a sibling rivalry (like England and Australia's relationship). We tease each other with reference to supposed national stereotypical traits (the Irish are heavy drinkers and very religious, the English are cold and unemotional etc). I think this trend toward warm and fond feelings will only increase over time
I generally despise optimism, it causes people to be unprepared and to become complacent. But I do agree with this, the feelings between the two has taken on a rather kindly family tone.
It's somewhat ironic that the feeling isn't extended towards the British living in Ireland, who are still viewed (as far as I have seen) somewhat disparagingly by the British mainlanders.
Original post by l'insegnante
You do realise that the person who set up the IPP who started the home rule for Ireland fight was Protestant?
And that many historic Irish Nationalists were Protestant?
No religious conflict. Its always been political.
And that many historic Irish Nationalists were Protestant?
No religious conflict. Its always been political.
There are exceptions in in all conflicts and wars.
There's no use repeating that line over and over. It's an area of historical debate with no clear answer due to its combination (and integration) of religion and politics. Your refusal to see any other point of view is simply a symptom of your being Christian.
Original post by HanSoloLuck
I generally despise optimism, it causes people to be unprepared and to become complacent. But I do agree with this, the feelings between the two has taken on a rather kindly family tone.
Indeed. I think it's important that people don't confuse the teasing between the two nations as evidence of serious dislike; just like the Brits tease the Aussies and the Aussies tease them back. It's like with brothers, you might have a certain competitive spirit and you tease each other, but it doesn't mean you don't love each other. That family relationship allows a degree of familiarity
It's somewhat ironic that the feeling isn't extended towards the British living in Ireland, who are still viewed (as far as I have seen) somewhat disparagingly by the British mainlanders.
I've never heard of that. Are you sure you mean British living in Ireland being viewed disparagingly by British mainlanders, not by the Irish they live amongst? I would have thought most British have no view one way or the other about Brits who migrate to Ireland, it's not an issue I've ever even heard of
Original post by Frostyjoe
Hi, I'm from Northern Ireland. I've moved to England (South) for university this year so this post is related to my experiences thus far.
Anyway, I have come across alot of ignorant people who aren't very aware of cultures outside their own region. In regards to Ireland as a whole, some people that I have met still think that Ireland is a very poor country with no resources.
For instance, I have met a female who is particularly ignorant and almost always boasts about her town and local area. She thinks that there is nothing as great as England and that Ireland is just a backwater dump. While England does have many, many fantastic places, there are also many, many places that are rife with crime and poverty. The town that I have moved to itself is quite isolated from other regions, I get the impression that it's an area that doesn't get as much funding from Westminster. I have travelled quite moderately, to me the area that I am in now is a typical middle class town, it's not out of this world and it's not cosmopolitian and bussling like London. I have certainly been to far better places in the world.
Alot of English people seem to think that we in Ireland live very sheltered lives. Alot of people I talk to think that it is a completely foreign land and are surprised when we have motoroways, Tesco etc. TBH, they give me the impression that they think that we live in cottages and use horse and karts.
It's quite comical actually. Ireland isn't that different to England, I don't know where this view comes from. Do English people in general, just not travel outside their own regions? Do they learn about other countries in School? Why do people in this country still have such ancient views?
Anyway, I have come across alot of ignorant people who aren't very aware of cultures outside their own region. In regards to Ireland as a whole, some people that I have met still think that Ireland is a very poor country with no resources.
For instance, I have met a female who is particularly ignorant and almost always boasts about her town and local area. She thinks that there is nothing as great as England and that Ireland is just a backwater dump. While England does have many, many fantastic places, there are also many, many places that are rife with crime and poverty. The town that I have moved to itself is quite isolated from other regions, I get the impression that it's an area that doesn't get as much funding from Westminster. I have travelled quite moderately, to me the area that I am in now is a typical middle class town, it's not out of this world and it's not cosmopolitian and bussling like London. I have certainly been to far better places in the world.
Alot of English people seem to think that we in Ireland live very sheltered lives. Alot of people I talk to think that it is a completely foreign land and are surprised when we have motoroways, Tesco etc. TBH, they give me the impression that they think that we live in cottages and use horse and karts.
It's quite comical actually. Ireland isn't that different to England, I don't know where this view comes from. Do English people in general, just not travel outside their own regions? Do they learn about other countries in School? Why do people in this country still have such ancient views?
Isn't it just farcical?! Sorry to hear that you have been forced to put up with this whilst you study. I suppose it's origin is largely in propaganda of the previous century that has distorted the thinking of generations of people in the UK - very unfortunate indeed. I would say that the girl who is obsessed with her town is not currently deserving of you time... guess she needs something to cling to fill some kind of emptiness or fear... Or maybe you can help her who knows.
I'm part English and can say that in my personal experience I have not yet encountered a culture more up itself than English culture...One of my (prejudice, apologies, no offence intended) jokes about England is that people who live there are largely insufferable whilst the rest are just squatting.... !
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Drewski
There's nothing special about Ireland. The kind of people who don't know anything about it also won't know anything about anywhere else.
It's not that they're holding Ireland in any particular contempt, they're just ignorant in general.
It's not that they're holding Ireland in any particular contempt, they're just ignorant in general.
Not really because they can't be in total ignorance of the developed world outside of England, can they?
Original post by isitisisitis
Not really because they can't be in total ignorance of the developed world outside of England, can they?
Wanna bet?
They'll be the types who 'know' it because they saw it on TV.
I adore Ireland: the accent, the countryside, the people and the quaintness of its towns and cities 
Original post by macromicro
There are exceptions in in all conflicts and wars.
There's no use repeating that line over and over. It's an area of historical debate with no clear answer due to its combination (and integration) of religion and politics. Your refusal to see any other point of view is simply a symptom of your being Christian.
There's no use repeating that line over and over. It's an area of historical debate with no clear answer due to its combination (and integration) of religion and politics. Your refusal to see any other point of view is simply a symptom of your being Christian.
My religion has absolutely nothing to do with my views on the topic. It's bigoted of you to say so.
Religion was used as a mask for a political war. Plain and simple as that.
I see you've declined to reply to my other post and answer my question.
It has to do wit others being gypsies and travelers and the IRA
you just look ignorant right now
Original post by BubbleBoobies
hoi. oi read tat meyssege in tis ahccent
yer frum nortern ahh-lend so ye sound like tis - hoh hoh hoh. where's ma' guiness laddy?
^you sound like that, we sound like this, lol
yer frum nortern ahh-lend so ye sound like tis - hoh hoh hoh. where's ma' guiness laddy?
^you sound like that, we sound like this, lol
you just look ignorant right now
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
I adore Ireland: the accent, the countryside, the people and the quaintness of its towns and cities
So you like the "culchies" and not the "jackeens"
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