This is how to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic

Original post by simbasdragon

What are the actions of innocent Israelis may I ask, 'innocent' being the emphasis?

There's too many for me to put in one thread. They're not 'innocent' they're criminals.

How about illegally building on Palestine land? Or demonstrations on Palestine land to further anger them. You dont add fuel to the fire, and thats exactly what the israelis do and then they cry when one of their own people get killed. The israeli jews deserve no say when the land they live off is not theirs and is declared illegal by international law. They're thieves.

Reply 62

OP

Original post by Youngmetro

There's too many for me to put in one thread. They're not 'innocent' they're criminals.

How about illegally building on Palestine land? Or demonstrations on Palestine land to further anger them. You dont add fuel to the fire, and thats exactly what the israelis do and then they cry when one of their own people get killed. The israeli jews deserve no say when the land they live off is not theirs and is declared illegal by international law. They're thieves.

Christ, you're uninformed. There are 8 million citizens of Israel. 75% of them are Jewish, 21% are Arabs, and 4.4% are Druze, Christians and others. First let's establish that all of these groups have equal rights as citizens. Those Arabs who refused citizenship still have a right to citizenship, and are entitled to municipal services and municipal voting rights.

There are 17 Arabs who sit on the Israeli Knesset (government,) there are four Arab political parties, yet 30% of them voted for Zionist parties at the turn of the decade.

As far back as 2004, PM Sharon declared that every state-run company should hage at least one Arab on its board of directors.

There are Arab CEO's, doctors, teachers and lawyers within Israel. I was treated in hospital by a joint team of an Israeli and an Arab doctor.

All of these people are Israelis. So which of them are evil? Only 382,000 live on the settlements, so what makes the rest of the 8 million guilty? Are only the Jews guilty, or are the Israeli Arabs too? Is it justified when these people are killed in civilian attacks in buses, shopping centres and schools, are they criminals?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 63

Original post by simbasdragon

Christ, you're uninformed. There are 8 million citizens of Israel. 75% of them are Jewish, 21% are Arabs, and 4.4% are Druze, Christians and others. First let's establish that all of these groups have equal rights as citizens. Those Arabs who refused citizenship still have a right to citizenship, and are entitled to municipal services and municipal voting rights.

There are 17 Arabs who sit on the Israeli Knesset (government,) there are four Arab political parties, yet 30% of them voted for Zionist parties at the turn of the decade.

As far back as 2004, PM Sharon declared that every state-run company should hage at least one Arab on its board of directors.

There are Arab CEO's, doctors, teachers and lawyers within Israel. I was treated in hospital by a joint team of an Israeli and an Arab doctor.

All of these people are Israelis. So which of them are evil? Only 382,000 live on the settlements, so what makes the rest of the 8 million guilty? Are only the Jews guilty, or are the Israeli Arabs too? Is it justified when these people are killed in civilian attacks in buses, shopping centres and schools, are they criminals?

Im talking about the issue with Palestine, im not bothered to talk about all the wrongs the Israelis have commited that makes them one of the biggest threats to world peace.

Are you seriously trying to justify the oppression the Israeli jews have perpetrated against the palestinians? You seem to continue to avoid the point; Stealing land, demonstrating and protesting on Palestine land, general oppression such as forcing Palestinians to carry and ID card and separating their settlements in a divide and conquer style tactic, hiring private men that profile palestinians and soooo many more examples. The world knows that Israel and the jews who live in these illegal settlements are criminals and oppressive thieves who have no right to the Palestinian land so save the calls of anti semitism because the world has had enough of the ******** going on.

Reply 64

OP

Original post by Youngmetro

Im talking about the issue with Palestine, im not bothered to talk about all the wrongs the Israelis have commited that makes them one of the biggest threats to world peace.

Are you seriously trying to justify the oppression the Israeli jews have perpetrated against the palestinians? You seem to continue to avoid the point; Stealing land, demonstrating and protesting on Palestine land, general oppression such as forcing Palestinians to carry and ID card and separating their settlements in a divide and conquer style tactic, hiring private men that profile palestinians and soooo many more examples. The world knows that Israel and the jews who live in these illegal settlements are criminals and oppressive thieves who have no right to the Palestinian land so save the calls of anti semitism because the world has had enough of the ******** going on.

You just missed my point spectacularly, stop going off on tangents. I did not even mention Palestinians, so don't accuse me of justifying their opression. I stated why your claim that all Israelis are criminals is blatantly rubbish.

So 'the Jews who live in these settlements are criminals and opressive thieves.' Firstly, I and many others also condemn them, the Israeli political parties of Meretz, Yesh Atid and the Zionist union also condemn them. All three of these groups calls for a two state soltuion amd greater rights for Palestinians. The people you should have a problem with should be Netanyahu and his Likud ministers, not even all of Israel. There are numerous movements within Israel which campaign and hold rallied over anger at Palestinian treatment.

Yet don't forget that there are two sides. Israelis also have rockets fired at them almost daily, when buses are blown up as they were recently, many Israelis live in fear of their lives too. This fear,rightly or wrongly, is what prevents people from wanting concessions for Palestinians as they genuinely fear that this would increase the ability for terrorists to kill.

Those living on settlements comprise 320,000 people out of 8 million. Because of these 320,000 does that mean that Jews worldwide can't call out anti-semtisim when they get beaten up on the streets, and their schools get threats of bombings?

Reply 65

Original post by simbasdragon

You just missed my point spectacularly, stop going off on tangents. I did not even mention Palestinians, so don't accuse me of justifying their opression. I stated why your claim that all Israelis are criminals is blatantly rubbish.

So 'the Jews who live in these settlements are criminals and opressive thieves.' Firstly, I and many others also condemn them, the Israeli political parties of Meretz, Yesh Atid and the Zionist union also condemn them. All three of these groups calls for a two state soltuion amd greater rights for Palestinians. The people you should have a problem with should be Netanyahu and his Likud ministers, not even all of Israel. There are numerous movements within Israel which campaign and hold rallied over anger at Palestinian treatment.

Yet don't forget that there are two sides. Israelis also have rockets fired at them almost daily, when buses are blown up as they were recently, many Israelis live in fear of their lives too. This fear,rightly or wrongly, is what prevents people from wanting concessions for Palestinians as they genuinely fear that this would increase the ability for terrorists to kill.

Those living on settlements comprise 320,000 people out of 8 million. Because of these 320,000 does that mean that Jews worldwide can't call out anti-semtisim when they get beaten up on the streets, and their schools get threats of bombings?

I was obviously referring specifically to those involved in the Palestinian conflict. Sure there are people who are against it but if we were to accept Israel and all its people, more should be done. Im not going to defend

Condemning them doesnt make what they do is wrong. I will also criticise Netanyahu but he's able to get away with these actions because it is also in the interest of the israeli jews in these settlements. Im not going to give any sympathy to all of Israel when the people are able to turn a blind eye to the issues. Sure, there are always some who fight back but clearly not enough. Israeli media further pushes this.

Ultimately though, those in the settlements are thieves who continue to believe they have a right to oppress the palestinians in the way they are doing so. Vile and disgusting beings they are.

If the Jews wanted it to stop, a 2 state solution is what is needed. These terrorists that use violence is totally wrong, killing innocent Israelis but they still have a clear and right agenda. The land belongs to Palestinians and if Israeli government really wanted it to stop they should work towards a 2 state solution. a negotiation hasnt happened for 2 years and the Israelis are using the support they have from the USA as leverage to attack Palestine which is ultimately a passive form of Genocide. Bombing them is, as i said, adding fuel to the fire.

A religiously influenced attack on innocent jews is totally wrong. But that doesnt make what israel is doing any better. I do believe the jewish community are experiencing such problems but we should be able to debate and criticise Israel without fear of being called Anti semitic, which is essentially happening on a larger, more diplomatic scale

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 66

OP

Original post by Youngmetro

I was obviously referring specifically to those involved in the Palestinian conflict. Sure there are people who are against it but if we were to accept Israel and all its people, more should be done. Im not going to defend

Condemning them doesnt make what they do is wrong. I will also criticise Netanyahu but he's able to get away with these actions because it is also in the interest of the israeli jews in these settlements. Im not going to give any sympathy to all of Israel when the people are able to turn a blind eye to the issues. Sure, there are always some who fight back but clearly not enough. Israeli media further pushes this.

Ultimately though, those in the settlements are thieves who continue to believe they have a right to oppress the palestinians in the way they are doing so. Vile and disgusting beings they are.

If the Jews wanted it to stop, a 2 state solution is what is needed. These terrorists that use violence is totally wrong, killing innocent Israelis but they still have a clear and right agenda. The land belongs to Palestinians and if Israeli government really wanted it to stop they should work towards a 2 state solution. a negotiation hasnt happened for 2 years and the Israelis are using the support they have from the USA as leverage to attack Palestine which is ultimately a passive form of Genocide. Bombing them is, as i said, adding fuel to the fire.

A religiously influenced attack on innocent jews is totally wrong. But that doesnt make what israel is doing any better. I do believe the jewish community are experiencing such problems but we should be able to debate and criticise Israel without fear of being called Anti semitic, which is essentially happening on a larger, more diplomatic scale

Stop backtracking, you weren't 'obviously referring to those specifically involved involved in the Palestinian conflict,' when I asked about innocent Israelis, ie those not involved in the conflict, you said they are all crimininals. In regards to Israeli media bias, have you heard of the Israeli newspaper 'Haaretz?' I recommend you read it online, it is highly popular within Israel and is often very critical of Netanyahu's actions.

In 2005, all of the settlements on the Gaza strip were dismantled by the IDF under PM Sharon's instructions, as were four more settlements in the West Bank. Unfortunately, only hours after Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians, this area was used by Hamas as a closer area in which to fire rockets into Israel. Because of this, Netanyahu now regards these settlements in Palestine as being an essential base in which the IDF can prevent the firing of rockets onto Israeli civilians. Whether or not you agree, the issue is not as black and white as you perceive it to be. The settlements are about more than wishing to anger the Palestinians, many believe they are essential for Israel's survival.

Similarly, Netanyahu and the right wing fear that a two state solution under Hamas' control would lead to Hamas terrorists using their close proximity to Israel to launch rockets and bombs, as they did in Gaza. Hamas have repeatedly stated that their aim is the destruction of Israel, Netanyahu argues that no agreement can be come to when this is their aim.

The land on which the settlements are built either belonged to Palestinians, or had no previous owners, and there I agree with you. As a left-winger, I am against the settlements. The land of Israel itself however was legally given to the Israeli's in 1947 by the UN, after previously being controlled by a British Mandate and owned by the Ottoman's prior to that. The legal boundaries of Israel do not belong to the Palestinians.

My original aim of this thread was to facilitate criticism of Israel without it spilling over into anti-semitism. Many of my left-wing Israeli friends criticise Netanyahu, that is not an issue, some of his actions have been awful in my opinion.

Reply 67

Original post by simbasdragon

My original aim of this thread was to facilitate criticism of Israel without it spilling over into anti-semitism. Many of my left-wing Israeli friends criticise Netanyahu, that is not an issue, some of his actions have been awful in my opinion.

The only issue you should be having is the generalisation of the actions of israeli jews. This is something that i agree with you and many make the mistake to make generalisations that have put the average, random Jew at risk. However this kind of culture of meticulously looking at what we say is what has allowed for a shield to emerge for Israeli govt. We dont do this when criticising other people or groups in society. I think a perfect example is post 9/11, where muslims faced a lot of discrimination. With such an aggressive approach, we fought back against Al Qaeda. sad truth is that collateral damage will always happen in issues and conflicts of this nature.

Furthermore dont get the impression that i believe Jews dont have any right to Israel. Im not up for that argument, which is very complex and both sides have evidence to support their own agenda but i do believe that Israel does hold a place for Jews. However, the palestinians have as much of a claim to their own homeland, if not more than that of the israeli jews.

Reply 68

Metalfros

16

People worrying about anti-semitism while Islamophobia (including some critcism on the state of Palestine) is a bigger problem.

Reply 69

OP

Original post by Metalfros

People worrying about anti-semitism while Islamophobia (including some critcism on the state of Palestine) is a bigger problem.

Can people not worry about more than one issue at the same time? Surely one can worry about the treatment of gay people in Russia at the same time as worrying about children living in poverty in the UK for example.

If I was being unintentionally Islamophobic and putting the wellbeing of ordinary Muslims at risk then I'd certainly want to know about it in order to stop.

Reply 70

Metalfros

16

Original post by simbasdragon

Can people not worry about more than one issue at the same time? Surely one can worry about the treatment of gay people in Russia at the same time as worrying about children living in poverty in the UK for example.

If I was being unintentionally Islamophobic and putting the wellbeing of ordinary Muslims at risk then I'd certainly want to know about it in order to stop.

You never did.

Reply 71

OP

Original post by Youngmetro

The only issue you should be having is the generalisation of the actions of israeli jews. This is something that i agree with you and many make the mistake to make generalisations that have put the average, random Jew at risk. However this kind of culture of meticulously looking at what we say is what has allowed for a shield to emerge for Israeli govt. We dont do this when criticising other people or groups in society. I think a perfect example is post 9/11, where muslims faced a lot of discrimination. With such an aggressive approach, we fought back against Al Qaeda. sad truth is that collateral damage will always happen in issues and conflicts of this nature.

Furthermore dont get the impression that i believe Jews dont have any right to Israel. Im not up for that argument, which is very complex and both sides have evidence to support their own agenda but i do believe that Israel does hold a place for Jews. However, the palestinians have as much of a claim to their own homeland, if not more than that of the israeli jews.

In theory your argument sounds logical, but in reality, the existence of this shield is questionable when Israel has received the amount of criticism which it has. On a diplomatic scale, Obama condemned Israel alongside numerous other countries, including the UK, for Operation protective edge.

Most significantly however, and I'd appreciate it if you directly responded to this, in a session of the UN in November 2015, the UN adopted 6 resolutions. Not a single one of these related to Syria, ISIS, Saudi Arabia, China or Russia, despite the human rights abuses they were commiting.

Every single one of those resolutions were ones entirely condemning Israel. How can you argue that the international community fear criticising Israel? The UN clearly doesn't.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 72

AhmedMA99

9

It is impossible to criticize "Israel" because criticizing
Fictional things is irrational. Say what you want to say,
but "Israel" doesn't exist..

Reply 73

OP

Original post by AhmedMA99

It is impossible to criticize "Israel" because criticizing
Fictional things is irrational. Say what you want to say,
but "Israel" doesn't exist..

Gosh, random boy, you'd better tell the 33 countries who voted for UN resolution 181 in 1947 for the creation of Israel! They'll be so embarassed to find out they imagined it, thank goodness 16 year old Ahmed knows the truth.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 74

brainhuman

Original post by simbasdragon

For those unsure of where the boundaries lie between the two, this post is really informative.

http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic

No.

"

1.

Don’t demand that Jews publicly repudiate the actions of settlers and extremists. People who make this demand are assuming that Jews are terrible people or undeserving of being heard out unless they “prove” themselves acceptable by non-Jews’ standards. (It’s not okay to demand Palestinians publicly repudiate the actions of Hamas in order to be accepted/trusted, either.)

"

That is exactly what we expects Muslims to do, denounce extremists, and fight their bad apples from within. And we are right to do so, and quite a few do do this (not enough but still, they do). So not making a valid argument just because Jews think they are untouchable is unacceptable.

I also disagree with 12. I mean yes, it is a bit of a nutjob idea that there is a huge conspiracy for Jewish world domination, but it is true as the article says that they are in those industries and it is true that they have a lot of power in those industries. One can fairly rightly say they have some control over them. And if you want to deny that someone who has control over something isn't using it to strengthen his viewpoints, then you are naive. Again, not saying that that amounts to a conspiracy, but it is still a valid point.

15. is PC bs as well. Why shouldn't you caricature them?
16. While there will be many who don't believe this, denying that many Jews think they are the Chosen People is wrong, and again naive. It's the same as denying there are Muslims who think Islam should rule the world and the infidel must convert or die.

And the last point is probably the biggest bs of the ones I mentioned here. So what, the Jew can pull the "you're an anti-Semite" card and that's it? He is right? :rolleyes:

ps that's just on those points. with regards to the whole issue - Israel is a terror state, and if for historical reasons the West would not be allied with it or sympathetic towards it, it would condemn the actions the state of Israel takes a lot more. Turkey is a bad guy for what it does (note, I agree, I think Erdogan is a dangerous psychopath) but Israel isn't? How is the Turkey/PKK relationship different to that of Israel/Palestine?

Reply 75

AhmedMA99

9

Original post by simbasdragon

Gosh, random boy, you'd better tell the 33 countries who voted for UN resolution 181 in 1947 for the creation of Israel! They'll be so embarassed to find out they imagined it, thank goodness 16 year old Ahmed knows the truth.

How about we redo the votes without the United States (World's strongest power) having Israels back? Results will be different now, wont they? Most of the voting countries were scared of getting one the wrong foot with The U.S.

Argentina (Was one of the choices to form the "Land of Israel" on, along with Chile and Palestine. So obviously they are going to agree)
Australia
Bolivia
Byelorussia
Canada
Chile
China
Colombia
Costa Rica
Cuba
Czechoslovakia
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
France
Guatemala
Haiti
Honduras
Iceland
Liberia
Luxembourg
Mexico
Netherlands
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Norway
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Ukraine
South Africa
Soviet Union
United States (The main reason why most of the countries voted for legalising Israel as a state)
Uruguay
Venezuela
Yugoslavia.

Reply 76

OP

Original post by brainhuman

No.

"

1.

Don’t demand that Jews publicly repudiate the actions of settlers and extremists. People who make this demand are assuming that Jews are terrible people or undeserving of being heard out unless they “prove” themselves acceptable by non-Jews’ standards. (It’s not okay to demand Palestinians publicly repudiate the actions of Hamas in order to be accepted/trusted, either.)

"

That is exactly what we expects Muslims to do, denounce extremists, and fight their bad apples from within. And we are right to do so, and quite a few do do this (not enough but still, they do). So not making a valid argument just because Jews think they are untouchable is unacceptable.

I also disagree with 12. I mean yes, it is a bit of a nutjob idea that there is a huge conspiracy for Jewish world domination, but it is true as the article says that they are in those industries and it is true that they have a lot of power in those industries. One can fairly rightly say they have some control over them. And if you want to deny that someone who has control over something isn't using it to strengthen his viewpoints, then you are naive. Again, not saying that that amounts to a conspiracy, but it is still a valid point.

15. is PC bs as well. Why shouldn't you caricature them?
16. While there will be many who don't believe this, denying that many Jews think they are the Chosen People is wrong, and again naive. It's the same as denying there are Muslims who think Islam should rule the world and the infidel must convert or die.

And the last point is probably the biggest bs of the ones I mentioned here. So what, the Jew can pull the "you're an anti-Semite" card and that's it? He is right? :rolleyes:

ps that's just on those points. with regards to the whole issue - Israel is a terror state, and if for historical reasons the West would not be allied with it or sympathetic towards it, it would condemn the actions the state of Israel takes a lot more. Turkey is a bad guy for what it does (note, I agree, I think Erdogan is a dangerous psychopath) but Israel isn't? How is the Turkey/PKK relationship different to that of Israel/Palestine?

I would never ask an ordinary Muslim to repudiate ISIS personally, but I can see why others would. The difference in your comparison however is that ISIS and current Islamic extremism, whilst having political undercurrents, uses religion as justification. Zionism is at its root a political movement, despite taking on some religious significance with some settlers. Herzl wanted a secular state to escape anti-semitism, he was even happy for it to be in Ethiopia! The Torah states that Jews will only return to Israel when the Messiah comes, whereas aspects of the quran can be said to back up ISIS. As all Muslims share the Quran, they're asked to denounce ISIS's interpretation of the book.

Some may assert some individual influence, but suggesting that Jews gather together to dominate to such an extent that they're able to control international foreign policy, for example, is sheer ridiculousness.

If you want to make cartoons copying Nazi propoganda (depicting Jews as money grabbing with big noses) then go ahead. But images have power, don't underestimate the power of visual depictions in propoganda.

Her last point clearly stated that you don't need to agree with them, but should at least listen to another opiniom without interrupting, something which often happens to those arguing in favour of Israel.

Feel free to criticise Israel, I have no desire to stop you. If one instead wants to use anti-semitic stereotypes then that is their perogative, whatever the backlash.

Reply 77

OP