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Why do girls go for poorly paid degrees?

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come on.. You're not seriously saying you could not get a job in IT with this masters:

http://www.masterstudies.co.uk/MSc-in-Web-Sciences-and-Big-Data/UK/UoL/

Look at jobserve, there are 12,000 jobs in IT each week
http://www.jobserve.com/gb/en/JobSearch.aspx?shid=0149FA379207205A20

The way your post says 'come on' and 'you're not seriously saying' shows to me that you aren't accepting the reality of the job market, and are more so trying to seek confirmation of this magical 'easy' path to a job. It doesn't happen that way anymore.

Companies aren't here to do candidates favours, if they aren't up to scratch they can and will ultimately leave their vacancies open without filling them.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 121

username738914

Original post by TheKian

It's the choices they make before and after choosing a degree

This ^ The only reasonable reply to the OP thus far.

Reply 122

Ladymusiclover

Original post by Juichiro

A 30K job is not a low-paying job. :tongue:

Okay not low paid then. Maybe I have too high ambitions lol.

Reply 123

username738914

Original post by Ladymusiclover

Okay not low paid then. Maybe I have too high ambitions lol.

Most likely. If you spend any time in a group of peers pursuing consulting/law/finance, you tend to find your expectations become quite skewed. This happens to me way too much.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 124

FredOrJohn

Original post by Juichiro

Look at the subjects, a PhD in STEM is worth more (financially) than a PhD in Education/History/etc. So women getting more PhDs is irrelevant if the vast majority of the PhD subjects are not STEM.

but if more women get Phds then men, that means the net effect, even if the PHd dollar worth is less, its still more than not having one.

Reply 125

Ladymusiclover

Original post by Princepieman

Yeah I think you're right!!!!!!!

Reply 126

Juichiro

Original post by FredOrJohn

but if more women get Phds then men, that means the net effect, even if the PHd dollar worth is less, its still more than not having one.

Nope, it isn't. Firstly, the scarcity effect kicks in: the more people that have an asset, the worth of that asset goes down. Secondly, if a large amount of females get a PhD that has low or no financial value, it does not mean that their PhDs are "more" (whatever you mean by that word) than those men and women in STEM that don't have one. At the end of the day, your certificate (an undergrad, a masters or a PhD) has value if there is a demand for it or/and the skills it develops on you not because you have it or because it exists.

Reply 127

username738914

Original post by Juichiro

What is the basis of your statement that PhD degrees such as 'History/Education etc' are 'less valued'?

If PhD holders in these subjects become professors, go into business or end up teaching how are they then not 'valued'?

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Reply 128

Lawliettt

Original post by FredOrJohn

Google says average starting salary of engineer is £23.5K
Google says average starting salary of a teacher is £22.2K
Its not that a big difference.

Now look at career progression as a teacher vs a graduate engineer

Reply 129

Juichiro

Original post by Princepieman

Maybe I should have said "less valued than". Professorship, business and teaching are also areas covered by STEM PhDs. However, unlike STEM, teaching (at secondary level) is more competitive than STEM because most STEM grads don't go into teaching, the path to professorship in the Humanities is way more competitive than in STEM (maybe because while STEM folk can into the STEM "industry", the Humanities "industry" is way more competitive (media? journalism?) and pay not as good). Regarding entrepreneurship, what Humanities business could a Humanities PhD possibly start that. There are no unicorns in the Humanities (ironically, there are plenty of actual unicorns in the Humanities). The best/only/safest strategy (both short-term and long-term) for a Humanities PhD who doesn't want to go into teaching (competitive), entrepreneurship (risky) or academia (low chances of getting in) is to bet on his transferable skills. STEMs have a way better start mainly because the career options of the Humanities PhD are a subset of their total career options.
It doesn't help that funding for humanities gets slashed every year.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 130

Lawliettt

Original post by IFoundWonderland

People don't do a degree to necessarily lead them into a job. .

That's exactly why most sane people do degrees. Jheez. From your reply alone i can tell you're doing liberal arts or something

Reply 131

username738914

Original post by Juichiro

Maybe I should have said "less valued than". Professorship, business and teaching are also areas covered by STEM PhDs. However, unlike STEM, teaching (at secondary level) is more competitive than STEM because most STEM grads don't go into teaching, the path to professorship in the Humanities is way more competitive than in STEM (maybe because while STEM folk can into the STEM "industry", the Humanities "industry" is way more competitive (media? journalism?) and pay not as good). Regarding entrepreneurship, what Humanities business could a Humanities grad possibly start that. There are no unicorns in the Humanities (ironically, there are plenty of actual unicorns in the Humanities). The best/only/safest strategy (both short-term and long-term) for a Humanities grad who doesn't want to go into teaching (competitive), entrepreneurship (risky) or academia (low chances of getting in) is to bet on his transferable skills. STEMs have a way better start mainly because the career options of the Humanities grads are a subset of their total career options. Interestingly, regret posts seem to be more abundant in the Humanities section of TSR (along the lines of: I did x but I don't wanna to do it for a career, besides doing basic research and writing essays, I don't have any particularly in-demand skills).

Humanities graduates can be nontechnical co-founders of a tech startup and there are unicorns with co-founders that fit this bill.

So your entire argument boils down to: it's either too competitive for non-STEM degree holders to get a good job (finance, teaching, professional services, law etc) or too risky (entrepreneurship)?

Surely STEM graduates have to face immense competition if they are aiming for the best paying jobs in their field? I.e. STEM grads wanting to go into quant finance or "top tech" will face extreme competition for the job. My issue with this is the majority of STEM graduates will end up on non spectacular compensation working in mediocre companies..

Reply 132

TobaccoSmoke

Original post by LaMandarine

If I go back in Romania to work in the ministry of external affairs after graduation, I'll have a starting salary of 18k. Conversely, in the UK an engineer friend of mine will start at 25k at a low-tier company and can go up to 30k in his first years. If I get in the Civil Service stream here, I'd have a starting salary of 25k-27k. If I go to work for the EU it's 40k starting salary :sexface:

. If he gets to a good company, I think he'll have around 33k-37k starting salary.

With that being said, my degree is not really pointless yet in local and international affairs, and I doubt it will become any time sooner.

Surely a starting salary of £18,000 in Romania is better than a starting salary of £25,000 in the UK due to lower cost of living?

Starting salaries of upwards of £30,000 in the UK are possible, but hardly common even for engineering graduates. Many well educated professionals struggle to earn much above £30,000 after years of being in a career, let alone as a starting salary.

Reply 133

XxKingSniprxX

Original post by LaMandarine

It was a joke, Christ :rofl:

. If you read the latter part of my argument, I went on to the serious part.

In Romania he won't get paid above 13k per annum anyway after graduation, because in my country there are so many students specialised in engineering, you find Polytechnic grads working as cashiers in supermarkets. Unless they choose to go abroad, they haven't got much to profess at home, and if they choose to work home, they'll have to be top of the class to even be considered in one of the few jobs still available for them.

If I go back in Romania to work in the ministry of external affairs after graduation, I'll have a starting salary of 18k. Conversely, in the UK an engineer friend of mine will start at 25k at a low-tier company and can go up to 30k in his first years. If I get in the Civil Service stream here, I'd have a starting salary of 25k-27k. If I go to work for the EU it's 40k starting salary :sexface:

I just asked a question :lol:

Reply 134

celloel

Original post by FredOrJohn

I wish people would stop saying crap like this. The reason that engineering is so crap in the UK is because engineers are so poorly paid. Its really is shocking how little an engineer earns (about £23K at start to about £35K when miles older). What sort of "high-paying" are you on about?

My dad's an aerospace engineer and earns £65k? Where are you getting your figures from?

Reply 135

FredOrJohn

Original post by celloel

My dad's an aerospace engineer and earns £65k? Where are you getting your figures from?

Seeeeee what you're doing, you put the word "aerospace" in front of the world "engineer". You either talk "engineering" as a whole or its not worth talking about.

Take Sheffield university - the UK CENTRE for engineering.
It has 50:50 percent male:female.

But engineering jobs do not pay well. Yes you could be in the oil industry or working in aircraft maintenance (a degree course for Kingston University in London) and make a killing, but your average engineer building a road or house (civll or structural) does not make much money...

Reply 136

picklescamp

Original post by So Instinct

buy me stuff pls k thnx

I will buy you all the thai green curries and french bulldogs in the world :lovie:

Reply 137

Smack

Volunteer Team

Original post by FredOrJohn

Why have you equated "average engineer" with building a road or house? I don't think much, if any, engineering goes into houses and I've never heard of an engineer build a road.

And Sheffield is certainly not the centre for engineering in the UK...

Reply 138

FigurativeTart

Original post by TobaccoSmoke

Of course it is, for the reason you've mentioned. In that statement I just showed that at home I would earn more than my Physics colleague, whereas here the salaries are equatable (depending on the job tier) between me and a colleague doing automotive engineering. I would have compared myself with a Physics student here if I knew one, but I just gave a comparison with the closest male counterpart I could think of. I'm not trying to draw accurate statistics here, these are mere analogies.

It depends on the position, company and actual subfield in engineering (not all are paid the same). I speak from my experience with colleagues from my university. I know one of them just got an offer at Rolls Royce for 27k in March. I also know maths students that earn less than my dad who is a chef. So it all depends.

Reply 139

Juichiro

Original post by Princepieman

1.Humanities graduates can be nontechnical co-founders of a tech startup and there are unicorns with co-founders that fit this bill.

So 2. your entire argument boils down to: it's either too competitive for non-STEM degree holders to get a good job (finance, teaching, professional services, law etc) or too risky (entrepreneurship)?

Surely STEM graduates have to face immense competition if they are aiming for the best paying jobs in their field? I.e. STEM grads wanting to go into quant finance or "top tech" will face extreme competition for the job. My issue with this is the majority of STEM graduates will end up on non spectacular compensation working in mediocre companies..

1. Technically, they can. But I am yet to see it in the UK. Plus, this people would depend on tech people to get the stuff implemented. Plus, the risk factor. Entrepreneurship (as in start-ups) is more of a lifestyle than a job that you leave at 5pm plus most start-ups fail. You don't want to spend your life working on projects that are likely to fail. Entrepreneurship (as in small business) is also risky. So if you are not a high-risk person, you probably won't go down this path.
2. I don't consider teaching a good job. It might be emotionally rewarding (sometimes) but the working conditions are terrible. The sub-forum for teaching speaks for itself. Unless, you LOVE teaching and are willing to face the possibility of damaging your health and have low pay, it is also not a path to go down. And as I said earlier, trying to become a teacher in a non-STEM subject is way harder than becoming a STEM teacher due to competition (aside from one particular subject). STEM teacher applicants are the targets of some pretty heavy luring tactics to luring them into teaching (that's how low the competition is). They can pretty easily get in with a 2.2 in a STEM subject (any uni goes) and little experience. While a Humanities teacher will need a relevant degree, lots of relevant experience just to have a realistic chance to get in.
Regarding finance and law, I believe you need to obtain additional degrees/certificates to get in. Those certificates have to be paid. Mostly in the four figures. Unless your parents are willing to pay, you will most likely have to work part-time to earn those certificates that you need. It will take a long time and it will be hard but I am guessing that those interested can make it in. That being said, I don't know about finance, but law is quite competitive to get in so not sure how easy it will be. That leaves professional services and I would be lying if I said that it isn't competitive (pwc springs to mind!). Out of the ones you mentioned, it is probably the most popular path (after teaching) for people doing Humanities. Again, it will be probably take several attempts to get in (due to high competition) especially if you don't come from a top university. Some of the companies seem to be asking for UCAS points.

Summarise: paths are available to Humanities grads but they are very competitive compared to the ones available to STEM grads. It might be because the stuff you learn isn't directly applicable as it is often the case in STEM.