Brutal Homophobic Attack in Brighton, Sussex
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Original post by ivybridge
I agree.
Debate is fine, your approach and attitude is not. It was explicitly asked to be left at the door. Handle this with maturity. I am sparking discussion; I am fully aware we have a lot of legal protections and that I can live my life with relative ease. This was not the point.
I agree with point two.
Debate is fine, your approach and attitude is not. It was explicitly asked to be left at the door. Handle this with maturity. I am sparking discussion; I am fully aware we have a lot of legal protections and that I can live my life with relative ease. This was not the point.
I agree with point two.
Are you sure it's not because you disagree with me and are being dismissive?
What does the gay rights movement want? Universal acceptance of gay people?
Why do racially motivated assaults continue to take place? Same thing - because there will always be hatred and intolerance.
Original post by M14B
They happen from what I hear all the time (in Brighton)
This was my point.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
It's achieved the goals of wealthy gender conforming cis gay white men. Funnily enough there are more people in the LGBTQ+ community than that. And why should trans people (who by the way, started the fight for rights) get dumped after helping campaign for the rights that cis LGBQ+ people have? If cis LGBQ+ people think trans people are going to stop them getting 'acceptance' then they're ********s. Cis members of the community need to fight with us because the fight's not over. If your activism only helps the most privileged in your community it's not really activism. And it's not liberation when you want to oppress people to become 'accepted'.
Ardently agree.
Original post by Dodgypirate
Are you sure it's not because you disagree with me and are being dismissive?
What does the gay rights movement want? Universal acceptance of gay people?
Why do racially motivated assaults continue to take place? Same thing - because there will always be hatred and intolerance.
What does the gay rights movement want? Universal acceptance of gay people?
Why do racially motivated assaults continue to take place? Same thing - because there will always be hatred and intolerance.
I am being very fair and open - stop trying to entice a bitchy row with me and get to thread. It was not dismissive - it was your approach. Your points were not the issue.
Well, yes, that is what should happen. We're not naïve enough to believe it will happen soon, if ever. However, I think you are missing the point. Laws do not mean anything if enforcement isn't there. A lot of things go down that the majority are not always too aware of. It isn't easy.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
It's achieved the goals of wealthy gender conforming cis gay white men. Funnily enough there are more people in the LGBTQ+ community than that. And why should trans people (who by the way, started the fight for rights) get dumped after helping campaign for the rights that cis LGBQ+ people have? If cis LGBQ+ people think trans people are going to stop them getting 'acceptance' then they're ********s. Cis members of the community need to fight with us because the fight's not over. If your activism only helps the most privileged in your community it's not really activism. And it's not liberation when you want to oppress people to become 'accepted'.
This exact attitude is what I'm talking about. Poisoning the well of good intentions by denigrating entire groups of individuals and simply attacking anyone who dares to disagree. LGB rights have been mostly addressed? Well that's because of the nasty rich cis white men.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
Original post by Arkasia
This exact attitude is what I'm talking about. Poisoning the well of good intentions by denigrating entire groups of individuals and simply attacking anyone who dares to disagree. LGB rights have been mostly addressed? Well that's because of the nasty rich cis white men.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
I don't think you see the user's point...
Original post by ivybridge
I am being very fair and open - stop trying to entice a bitchy row with me and get to thread. It was not dismissive - it was your approach. Your points were not the issue.
Well, yes, that is what should happen. We're not naïve enough to believe it will happen soon, if ever. However, I think you are missing the point. Laws do not mean anything if enforcement isn't there. A lot of things go down that the majority are not always too aware of. It isn't easy.
Well, yes, that is what should happen. We're not naïve enough to believe it will happen soon, if ever. However, I think you are missing the point. Laws do not mean anything if enforcement isn't there. A lot of things go down that the majority are not always too aware of. It isn't easy.
What kind of "enforcement" are you looking for in particular?
If someone beats you up whilst shouting homophobic obscenities they'll be locked up, charged and sentenced. That person, if caught, won't walk away scot-free.
I don't know what else you expect.
I think everyone is aware of homophobia now and that gays are still struggling, but we're also aware that there are laws protecting you now.
Perfect harmony will never happen... there will always be haters.
Original post by Arkasia
This exact attitude is what I'm talking about. Poisoning the well of good intentions by denigrating entire groups of individuals and simply attacking anyone who dares to disagree. LGB rights have been mostly addressed? Well that's because of the nasty rich cis white men.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
PRSOM.
Original post by Dodgypirate
What kind of "enforcement" are you looking for in particular?
If someone beats you up whilst shouting homophobic obscenities they'll be locked up, charged and sentenced. That person, if caught, won't walk away scot-free.
I don't know what else you expect.
I think everyone is aware of homophobia now and that gays are still struggling, but we're also aware that there are laws protecting you now.
Perfect harmony will never happen... there will always be haters.
If someone beats you up whilst shouting homophobic obscenities they'll be locked up, charged and sentenced. That person, if caught, won't walk away scot-free.
I don't know what else you expect.
I think everyone is aware of homophobia now and that gays are still struggling, but we're also aware that there are laws protecting you now.
Perfect harmony will never happen... there will always be haters.
That does not always happen an we're not just talking about people getting beaten up. I don't expect you to understand because you aren't part of it - you don't necessarily see what LGBTQIA people see from day to day.
Laws are protecting us and that was not disputed. However, you are still missing the point that enforcement doesn't always happen and a lot of things slip under the radar.
Although, I do not believe much can be done about it. Or atleast, what can be done is not at all clear as of yet. I am simply trying to see what people think.
I agree.
Original post by Arkasia
This exact attitude is what I'm talking about. Poisoning the well of good intentions by denigrating entire groups of individuals and simply attacking anyone who dares to disagree. LGB rights have been mostly addressed? Well that's because of the nasty rich cis white men.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
If you want people to fight with you, you should stop causing divisions where there are none, and stop the kind of identity politics that is killing political and social discourse throughtout the western world. People won't fight for you if you're shouting hatred at them for not working hard enough, or for only being selfish celebrating when they finally get their rights.
It's not us trans people trying to separate ourselves from the cis part of the community. It's cis LGBQ+ people cutting themselves off from us. And actually things still aren't good for a lot of cis LGBQ+ people. But the most vocal are the people most privileged in other ways and they think that if we campaign too loudly they'll lose their privilege.
I don't want privileged people to fight for my rights who only want to fight if I do it in a way that's acceptable to them. I'm glad people celebrate when same-gender marriage is legalised in their country etc. but when they then say that the fight is over and everything's been gained I get angry.
Original post by ivybridge
That does not always happen an we're not just talking about people getting beaten up. I don't expect you to understand because you aren't part of it - you don't necessarily see what LGBTQIA people see from day to day.
Laws are protecting us and that was not disputed. However, you are still missing the point that enforcement doesn't always happen and a lot of things slip under the radar.
Although, I do not believe much can be done about it. Or atleast, what can be done is not at all clear as of yet. I am simply trying to see what people think.
I agree.
Laws are protecting us and that was not disputed. However, you are still missing the point that enforcement doesn't always happen and a lot of things slip under the radar.
Although, I do not believe much can be done about it. Or atleast, what can be done is not at all clear as of yet. I am simply trying to see what people think.
I agree.
You're being fallacious now
- Burden of Proof fallacy. Original post by SmallTownGirl
It's not us trans people trying to separate ourselves from the cis part of the community. It's cis LGBQ+ people cutting themselves off from us. And actually things still aren't good for a lot of cis LGBQ+ people. But the most vocal are the people most privileged in other ways and they think that if we campaign too loudly they'll lose their privilege.
I don't want privileged people to fight for my rights who only want to fight if I do it in a way that's acceptable to them. I'm glad people celebrate when same-gender marriage is legalised in their country etc. but when they then say that the fight is over and everything's been gained I get angry.
I don't want privileged people to fight for my rights who only want to fight if I do it in a way that's acceptable to them. I'm glad people celebrate when same-gender marriage is legalised in their country etc. but when they then say that the fight is over and everything's been gained I get angry.
I agree strongly. This happens a lot. Most of the LGBTQIA community has this same attitude to Bisexuals also. It's almost become solely a "gay" fight.
Original post by Dodgypirate
You're being fallacious now - Burden of Proof fallacy.
- Burden of Proof fallacy. I am not being anything. Stop criticising me in every damn post. It's the reality. It is hard to understand what you don't face. You think rules are there and they are black and white and things are done. This is not always true.
Original post by ivybridge
I agree strongly. This happens a lot. Most of the LGBTQIA community has this same attitude to Bisexuals also. It's almost become solely a "gay" fight.
Yep. There's a lot of biphobia. There's a lot of misogyny from cis gay men. The levels of transphobia are huge. There's ace and aro erasure. And then there's lots of racism, classism, ableism.
I believe that the LGBT community is more divisive than unifying. It's rather authoritarian and has this "you're either with us or against us" black-and-white aspect to it.
I remember reading that gay men were no longer "oppressed" and so shouldn't represent the LGBT community at University - something to do with the NUS.
That just sums it up perfectly.
I remember reading that gay men were no longer "oppressed" and so shouldn't represent the LGBT community at University - something to do with the NUS.
That just sums it up perfectly.
I think there should be a higher representation of the LGBT+ community in the entertainment industry. I don't think I can name a main character from a mainstream movie that is LGBT+. And when they are included they are usually given small roles or are killed off.
Laws and marches can only do so much IMO. Of course they have achieved great things and we've come to this point now, but I think this is as far as it will take us. Also marches and movements can be easily ignored by homophobic people, so these don't have an affect on anyone that already holds those kinds of views.
Like I dunno, I may be rambling a bit here and may not be making much sense, so I'll just say this. We need strong LGBT+ characters in movies, with real purpose. Not just a side character or one that gets killed off. I don't know how to exactly explain it, but what I'm trying to say is that the exclusion of main LBGT+ characters in movies is directly affecting the acceptance of LGBT+ people in my opinion.
Spoiler
Laws and marches can only do so much IMO. Of course they have achieved great things and we've come to this point now, but I think this is as far as it will take us. Also marches and movements can be easily ignored by homophobic people, so these don't have an affect on anyone that already holds those kinds of views.
Like I dunno, I may be rambling a bit here and may not be making much sense, so I'll just say this. We need strong LGBT+ characters in movies, with real purpose. Not just a side character or one that gets killed off. I don't know how to exactly explain it, but what I'm trying to say is that the exclusion of main LBGT+ characters in movies is directly affecting the acceptance of LGBT+ people in my opinion.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
Yep. There's a lot of biphobia. There's a lot of misogyny from cis gay men. The levels of transphobia are huge. There's ace and aro erasure. And then there's lots of racism, classism, ableism.
The **** is that?
Original post by Dodgypirate
I believe that the LGBT community is more divisive than unifying. It's rather authoritarian and has this "you're either with us or against us" black-and-white aspect to it.
I remember reading that gay men were no longer "oppressed" and so shouldn't represent the LGBT community at University - something to do with the NUS.
That just sums it up perfectly.
I remember reading that gay men were no longer "oppressed" and so shouldn't represent the LGBT community at University - something to do with the NUS.
That just sums it up perfectly.
How does it sum it up? That's simply not true. LGBTQIA people are a collective community. We all struggle, we all fight for the same thing, and we all support one another as best we can, largely. The NUS' comments were stupid.
Well, you can believe what you want but at the end of the day, this whole mission has been about unity and I think your point of view stems from the fact you are ignorant to a lot of what goes on behind the media, and behind what laws tell you should happen.
Original post by Dodgypirate
I believe that the LGBT community is more divisive than unifying. It's rather authoritarian and has this "you're either with us or against us" black-and-white aspect to it.
I remember reading that gay men were no longer "oppressed" and so shouldn't represent the LGBT community at University - something to do with the NUS.
That just sums it up perfectly.
I remember reading that gay men were no longer "oppressed" and so shouldn't represent the LGBT community at University - something to do with the NUS.
That just sums it up perfectly.
The comment wasn't that gay men aren't oppressed in society as a whole. It's that within LGBTQ+ spaces they are not oppressed for being gay or men. They may be oppressed for other reasons (e.g. race, being trans, disability) but not for being gay men. Rep positions on society committees are supposed to allow the voices of more marginalised groups within the committee to be heard because our voices are often drowned out both outside and within the community.
Original post by ivybridge
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/11/man-arrested-after-brutal-homophobic-attack-on-brighton-seafront/
- - - - - - - - -
It would be nice to discuss what you think about the gay rights movement and whether or not it has achieved its goals, why things like this still happen, and whether or not it is taken seriously enough.
- - - - - - - - -
It would be nice to discuss what you think about the gay rights movement and whether or not it has achieved its goals, why things like this still happen, and whether or not it is taken seriously enough.
Because some people don't like homosexuals, they have their reasons whether it be fear of the unknown, thinking it's morally disgusting according to their beliefs,religion etc. people have random views on things, this is unlikely to change.
Original post by zetamcfc
Because some people don't like homosexuals, they have their reasons whether it be fear of the unknown, thinking it's morally disgusting according to their beliefs,religion etc. people have random views on things, this is unlikely to change.
It can definitely change. It depends on the issue but sweepingly saying "nope, no chance" is very inaccurate.
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