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<a https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7467335'> Year 12s: what will be the first way you research your future options? >>
<a https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7467335'> Year 12s: what will be the first way you research your future options? >>
<a https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7467335'> Year 12s: what will be the first way you research your future options? >>

The Remain Argument

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@Luke Kostanjsek


Because our economies are interlinked (regardless of EU membership). If Polands economy tanks it will have far more damaging consequences to the UK than what that money could have been spent on domestically continuing.
Original post by Bornblue
I'm not really interested in conspiracy theories and if you try hard enough you can compare anything or any situation to Hitler.

He has no relevance to the EU. Bringing him up serves no purpose other than to try and get people to associate Hitler with the EU.


Labelling any facts you don't like as "conspiracy" and "theory" is absurd. The fact of the matter is that the Nazi harmonisation of the Ruhr, incorporating Belgian and N.French steel and coal production was the inspiration for Monnet's European Coal and Steel Community. Those who want to Remain have a lot to thank the Nazis for.
Original post by Bornblue
Hitter was trying to create a large German state.
The European Union wants a collection of states which will not be one large German state

Why even mention hitler? What relevance does it have at all?

Comparing anything to hitler is loaded.


See this thread for why Hitler is relevant: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4104861
Original post by Davij038
@Luke Kostanjsek


Because our economies are interlinked (regardless of EU membership). If Polands economy tanks it will have far more damaging consequences to the UK than what that money could have been spent on domestically continuing.


Linkage can be in various degrees. Light linkage would mean one economy would not affect another. You cannot simply declare that linkage is always total!
Original post by newpersonage
Labelling any facts you don't like as "conspiracy" and "theory" is absurd. The fact of the matter is that the Nazi harmonisation of the Ruhr, incorporating Belgian and N.French steel and coal production was the inspiration for Monnet's European Coal and Steel Community. Those who want to Remain have a lot to thank the Nazis for.

Godwin's law right here. If you're losing the argument just accuse your opponents of being like Hitler.
Original post by newpersonage
Labelling any facts you don't like as "conspiracy" and "theory" is absurd. The fact of the matter is that the Nazi harmonisation of the Ruhr, incorporating Belgian and N.French steel and coal production was the inspiration for Monnet's European Coal and Steel Community. Those who want to Remain have a lot to thank the Nazis for.


Same goes for those that want to leave.

They take the self-sufficiency goal of the Nazis and want to achieve it, too.
Original post by inhuman
Same goes for those that want to leave.

They take the self-sufficiency goal of the Nazis and want to achieve it, too.


Read the EEC documentation in this TSR post, http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4104861 the Nazis wanted an EEC not dissimilar to the current EU.
Original post by newpersonage
Read the EEC documentation in this TSR post, http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4104861 the Nazis wanted an EEC not dissimilar to the current EU.


What's your point?

Are you denying that the Leave campaign are nationalistic, want self sufficiency?
Original post by inhuman
What's your point?

Are you denying that the Leave campaign are nationalistic, want self sufficiency?


No, I am saying that the Nazis were internationalist like you seem to favour - see http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4104861
Original post by newpersonage
No, I am saying that the Nazis were internationalist like you seem to favour - see http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4104861


And I am saying the Nazis were nationalists like you. That you want to model the economy of your country on their idea of self sufficiency.
Original post by inhuman
And I am saying the Nazis were nationalists like you. That you want to model the economy of your country on their idea of self sufficiency.


The AXIS Nazis were Internationalist. They established a 3rd Reich - 3rd Holy Roman Empire - and an EEC involving the Axis powers. They were also keen to expand globally, especially in the East. The self sufficiency was for the whole EEC - see:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lee.riley/Notices/EWG.pdf

Anyway, this is getting nowhere and I just realised that you have given us another demonstration of the "Remain" argument:

On the history of Europe: The EU is not like the AXIS who formed an economic community in Europe under central political control
On the history of Europe: The EU is dedicated to the formation of an economic community in Europe and a political union
Original post by newpersonage
This is not a hypothetical debating society issue, it is a National Referendum on the future of our country…


Actually, this is one thing we can agree on.
Original post by CherishFreedom
I'm glad we can agree that there is no evidence on to prove either sides of the argument.

We don't agree on that point. I think there is plenty of evidence to show that the UK is better off within the EU - what we agree on is that there is little evidence from focusing on one, or a very limited number of data points.
Original post by newpersonage
This referendum is about the fact that, within 30 years a Remain vote will end self government in the UK. We already have a 2 speed EU with the Eurogroup headed for full political union by 2025 and all of their heads of state saying publicly that full political union is the only solution to the Euro crisis. The "Rational Decision" must be based on political union versus independence.


So, it your honest belief that within nine years there will be no national governments in the entire Eurozone? Each state in the Eurozone will be fully controlled from Brussels?
Original post by CherishFreedom
There is no 'burden of evidence' on either side, this is just your personal expectation I'm afraid.


I believe that you are wrong on this point. If we were having an academic debate on the issue, then you might be right. But we aren't having an academic debate, we're having a discussion about the future of the UK, and that discussion will be instantiated by the vote on 23 June. Under such real life conditions I think it is reasonable that there is evidence to make a change from the status quo - particularly as we have already had a referendum on the issue, and since that time successive governments have agreed to continue on that path.
Original post by typonaut
We don't agree on that point. I think there is plenty of evidence to show that the UK is better off within the EU - what we agree on is that there is little evidence from focusing on one, or a very limited number of data points.


There are evidence for both sides to suggest that we will be better off in the case of leaving or remaining. They are open for interpretation. They are not prove since it is not possible to prove the future.

Can we just forget about Simon's use of one data? I only used him to demonstrate the philosophy of decision making. He is not a real person, and I was not implying anyone was making a decision on one set of data.
Original post by newpersonage
The facts are given above. The Eurogroup will control almost 90% of the vote in the EU Council by 2025 and there are now almost no vetoes.


This is just wrong. For a start the UK alone has 13% of the vote, Poland gets about 7.5, Romania gets 4% and the remaining non-eurozone members get around 13% between them - this alone is enough votes to stop any imposition via QMV.
Original post by newpersonage
You are missing my point. You are proposing that we should simply go along with the EU because any bad things can be undone or avoided. This is obviously untrue but even if it were true why would you try to entice people into such a position? The OP is about the disingenuous nature of the Remain arguments and you are proving it.

The Remain camp don't just use negative arguments and fear, when these don't work they use subversion. Why on earth cant you just say "lets remain, give up self government and throw in our lot with the EU" instead of all these creepy arguments?


I think your entire presumption is wrong - you seem to believe that only bad things can result from EU membership - but that is self-evidently incorrect.

You talk about the REMAIN camp using fear - all you do is argue for LEAVE using fear tactics!
Original post by typonaut
I believe that you are wrong on this point. If we were having an academic debate on the issue, then you might be right. But we aren't having an academic debate, we're having a discussion about the future of the UK, and that discussion will be instantiated by the vote on 23 June. Under such real life conditions I think it is reasonable that there is evidence to make a change from the status quo - particularly as we have already had a referendum on the issue, and since that time successive governments have agreed to continue on that path.


I'm afraid there is still no burden of prove. It really is your personal expectation. You can't draw a line and make up your own rule, people don't need to proof anything to you. They are fully entitled to keep their opinions to themselves if they want, and vote as they want.
Original post by Observatory
I didn't know that France had exactly one MEP more than Britain and Italy.

I wonder how many thousands of hours were spent extracting that concession.


France has a larger population than both the UK and Italy. What you will notice is that France actually has the lowest representation per capita in the EU - it would need to have 75 MEPs (two more than the UK) in order for the UK to head that table, and even then the difference would be marginal.

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