Do you think of homosexuality as effeminate?

Do you mind if I ask are you straight? I think it would probably bother straight people less. But when you're gay, and it feels like your people have been the butt of that joke for centuries (at best! Often when not being laughed at we were being executed, and even to this day that is still happening in some parts of the world) then it can feel much more like a retrograde step and a depiction that takes us backwards.

Of course it's true there are effeminate gay men, but my experience is that they are in the minority. And TV doesn't have a responsibility to make every gay TV personality or every gay character in a TV show a model and a pattern of masculine respectability. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if we did see a bit more of that masculine respectability.

I suppose the sort of role models I see are people like EJ Coleman who is the class president at the US military academy at West Point (the first cadet at West Point to be both Class President and First Captain since the famous US general Pershing) and on top of that had the courage to come out at West Point.

Or people like Eric Fanning, who is the US Secretary of the Army (the highest civilian position in the US Army, just under the US Secretary of Defence). Those are the kind of role models I'd like young gay guys to see; patriotic, masculine, respectable. There are many other such people serving in the intelligence community, the armed forces, in high positions of responsibility in government.

These are the kind of things I'd want my son (if I have one) to aspire to, whether gay or straight. And if he was gay, I'd prefer he was respectable, disciplined, patriotic not a show-tunes pop-culture obsessed flake. How will gay people know that they can aspire to make a real contribution to their society if most of the role models they see are basically clowns and the butt of a joke?

X

I'm sure there are plenty of people in sport who are not out because of the stigma, however, with the exception of a few i find the majority of sports men to be utterly boring - i say this coming from somebody who enjoys watching, playing sport. Id quite happily date one - i'd like to think we'd get along. I wouldn't date a camp guy as that's not what i like - nothing personal, the same goes for anybody that doesn't have personality.

I'm very interested in this subject. I'm a gay guy myself, but I'm not by any means effeminate (lisping, mincing around, into musical theatre and so on). I'm not super macho either, or trying to be something I'm not. I (and most of my gay friends) are I suppose just normal guys in terms of mannerisms.

I'm a bit geeky in that I'm interested in technology, ancient history, warfare and military technology. I'm also a bit country-oriented; I ride, I shoot (and no, I mean in the sense of horses and shotguns, not copulation and ejaculation).

When I first came out (and this was a little bit before Grindr became big) I went out to some gay bars and my experience was that the denizens of the gay "scene" tended to be much more effeminate and campy than ordinary gay men I met outside the scene.

On the other hand, I do know some gay guys who are the stereotype of the lisping, musical theatre-oriented queen. I might be going out on a limb here, but my experience is that those sort of gay guys are more often "bottoms" (receptive partners) and that guys like me tend to be either "top" (dominant partner) or "versatile" (willing to switch it up... my personal preference as it's infinitely more novel and there's a sense of equality between the two guys).

I also find the homosexual couplings of the ancient world quite interesting; in Roman culture it seems it was quite normal for a man to be attracted to both women and male youths (I guess 15 to about 20). Some of the accounts of the Punic Wars I read was that when one of these cities was sacked, the soldiers fought each other over the most beautiful women and the most comely lads. I can't remember which historian it was (Livy, Tacitus, one of them) mentioned both in the same breath, with no apparent sense of soldierly preference for one or the other. The Romans didn't care what a freeborn male citizen did with his slaves or prostitutes, male or female, as long as he didn't let himself be penetrated. The Greeks did seem to allow some degree of male love between freeborn male citizens (probably too long a subject to get into here)

So I've wondered is it possible that, biologically, there are two types of gay men? There are gay men who are more like me, who are attracted to other guys and have broadly the same mindset as heterosexual men in terms of mannerism, mindset and so on. And then there is a second category of gay man who perhaps has a more female mindset, hence the effeminate behaviour.

Finally, I am certain that effeminate behaviour among gay men is becoming rarer (it seems more common among older gay men); in the old days to meet other gay men you had to go through the gay scene, which by virtue of being located in and a part of the entertainment industry (clubs, drag queens, rent boys) encouraged a more effeminate group behaviour which people would adopt due to peer pressure. But in the modern day where gay men can meet each other through the internet they can do so according to common interests and without that pressure (for example, the "gaybros" subreddit for gay guys who are into sport, hunting, fishing, shooting etc).

What do you think?

Yes

Many think of homosexuals as mincing, campy pink wings, tutu wearing pouting 'men'

This is not helped by Pride marches where it's fetishists, and all the above mentioned parading. Also tv actors ALWAYS have to be camp, bitchy, pouting etc. This is awful for those non camp guys. So many avoid the gay places and associations to it. It's good to see non mincers in soaps as it encourages guys to come out, but some deliberately camp it up, I find that very repulsive. Not all gays, bisexuals are camp neither should they force it, and the other way round.

You pretty much nailed it.

Cant stand effeminate men, straight or not.

Of course what you are saying is right. TV execs will produce what makes money, and camp is entertaining and therefore attracts advertisers and viewers. I don't begrudge them that, nor the TV viewing audience.

But I suppose my point is that gay people have never had a problem getting into the entertainment industry; the theatre, dance, television etc have always been industries that are open to gay men. And artistic expression is indeed very important, it's part of what makes us human, what makes us civilised.

What I'm getting at is that those sort of roles are ones that gay people don't have any problem getting into, and heterosexuals don't have any trouble viewing gay people being in those roles. It's the positions in our society that involve real power, that possess weighty responsibility, that encompass defending our society and killing our enemies. These are roles gay people in Western Christian civilisation have been shut out of and why it's so important when they attain these positions.

Of course if my son wanted to be an actor and it made him happy then that would be what he would do. I would be proud of him if he worked hard and made thoughtful art/television, if he had a family and was an ethical man and a good dad. But I can't deny that if I had a gay son, I would be even more proud if he broke the sexuality mold that society has cast onto gay people for centuries, and instead pursued a career in the intelligence world, or the special forces or the important echelons of the civil service like the MoD, Cabinet Office or Treasury. I suppose I'm a bit of a patriot and I'm a bit old-fashioned in some ways

I would want my children to be happy, but I also think family is important and different families have different values. Mine impressed onto me the importance of public service, either in military or government, or politics. I suppose it's almost a Roman conception of citizenship, I'd want to pass that to my offspring.

I think we're on the same page there. I'm not attracted to campy guys. I'm not attracted to gay guys who try too hard to be the "straight-acting" type either. If I could find a guy who shared my interest in politics and ancient history, a city-dwelling country boy who could ride and shoot, who was clever, funny, mischievous, amibtious.... I'd be very happy indeed. And similarly, it's nothing against camp guys personally it's just what I find attractive. Oh and being cute wouldn't hurt

This is not helped by Pride marches where it's fetishists, and all the above mentioned parading.

Ahh i see, sorry. I totally agree. I agree that it's more widely accepted for gay men to be in musical theatre, dance ect, perhaps because people view such activities as more feminine which fits with the stereotype.

In some ways i don't like the fact the LGBT people feel the need to 'come out' Iv'e never felt the need to come out because i don't see it as an issue. I'd like people to judge me on being me and what i can bring to their life ect. I do, however, understand why some 'celebrities' - i don't like this term, and other high ranking officials come out as gay, because for some, being gay isn't that easy because of the social, religious norms ect, but also due to the stigma that still exists within certain jobs.

I do, however, think that people should attain jobs based on what they can bring, and how good they are, instead of appointing somebody based of off gender or sexuality. I'm a patriot too, don't worry, and i believe in many of the things you've highlighted above.

Very true, though there's been an excellent trend recently where "celebrities", actors and so on, just casually mention that they are gay when asked if they have a girlfriend. There was one who was asked about his coming out and he said "I was never in the closet, no one ever asked". More and more, it's becoming a non-issue and I think that's a great advance. Personally I've never made a point of having a big, dramatic coming out. I deal with people on a normal basis when I meet them, they find out I'm gay if the subject comes up "Do you have a girlfriend?" and that kind of thing. I neither make a parade out of it, nor do I hide it. To me it seems quite irrelevant. And I think my straight mates see it that way too, they don't see me as their "gay friend", I'm just one of their mates who happens to be gay



Definitely. I don't want to see affirmative action for gay people, they should attain these positions on merit. I think the important reform is that since the mid-90s being gay will no longer prevent you from getting a security clearance, which means that gay people can and are attaining these kinds of roles based on merit.

And in many ways this kind of scenario is the kind of gestalt (to be a bit pretentious) of the present conflict; when you have a senior intelligence officer, who happens to be gay, ordering a drone strike on an ISIS terrorist, that is where the rubber hits the road in terms of our values vs their values. I want gay people to play a part of that, as normal patriotic citizens whose sexuality is an issue only insofar as it distinguishes the West from our enemies.

In many ways, the fact we do see gay people in those types of roles (a friend of mine is in the MoD working MENA issues), that gay people can get married and be full and equal citizens, intensifies and cements my patriotism and conviction of the superiority of our way of life over our enemies'.

Bold sums it up beautifully

Thanks dude

You're welcome

You at University?

Indeed, I'm a law student. And you?

Hopefully not the bearer of bad news but I'm not longer at university. I had to drop out as i wasn't very well. I do hope to go back though. I was studying International relations with war and conflict

Ah I'm sorry to hear that dude I sympathise as I've had my own health problems.

Don't let it get you down, you're young and you have your whole life ahead of you. Get back on that horse, it's only a temporary setback x

There are gay men who are more like me, who are attracted to other guys and have broadly the same mindset as heterosexual men in terms of mannerism, mindset and so on

Thanks man, appreciate it!

How do you know I'm young? You been spying on me