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Would you trust the EU with an army?

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Original post by nulli tertius
No, he decides where and when to shoot back if someone else invades NATO territory.


Not really.

We're a constitutional monarchy. The military doesn't make any decision on whether to invade a country or not. That's done by the PM and Parliament in the name of the Queen.


So, an EU army will also be controlled by a civilian power structure of which Juncker, who hardly anyone has heard of will be the Commander-in-Chief. Which is about as ridiculous as it sounds.
Original post by Supersaps
Not really.

We're a constitutional monarchy. The military doesn't make any decision on whether to invade a country or not. That's done by the PM and Parliament in the name of the Queen.


You didn't read what I said, did you? His role is to deal with aggression, not go on expeditionary warfare.

The PM has already exercised the power of the British crown by the Rules of Engagement he, and the other appropriate authorities in the NATO member states, have given to the NATO supreme commander, and periodically updated since 1949.


So, an EU army will also be controlled by a civilian power structure of which Juncker, who hardly anyone has heard of will be the Commander-in-Chief. Which is about as ridiculous as it sounds.


Sorry to disappoint you if you think that Juncker will be studying maps deciding whether troops should attack on the Tigris or the Euphrates.
An army is one of the few things that reasonably ought to be done at the European level. But an army needs to know who its commander-in-chief is and that commander-in-chief must have clear legitimacy. The EU can't provide those things.
Original post by Observatory
An army is one of the few things that reasonably ought to be done at the European level. But an army needs to know who its commander-in-chief is and that commander-in-chief must have clear legitimacy. The EU can't provide those things.


This isn't the 18th century.

Multi-national forces, and God knows we have deployed enough of them in the last 25 years, report to committees of the governments of the participants and since those committees are incapable of immediate decisive action, Rules of Engagement have to be put in place at a time when those committees have time for deliberation and consultation with their Home governments. Once they are in place, the war has to be turned over to the generals.

There is a very narrow window, commencing with Lloyd George's interventions with the western front and ending in the early 1980s with the Falklands and the US involvement in Lebanon, where the political leadership of single nations micro-managed at least some military campaigns from the Head of Government's office.

There is no military or civilian command problem in having an EU army. Frankly within a week we could put together a command structure for a joint UK-Russian-St Lucian-Burundi operation to support anti-terrorist operations in Tonga.
Original post by nulli tertius
This isn't the 18th century.

Multi-national forces, and God knows we have deployed enough of them in the last 25 years, report to committees of the governments of the participants and since those committees are incapable of immediate decisive action, Rules of Engagement have to be put in place at a time when those committees have time for deliberation and consultation with their Home governments. Once they are in place, the war has to be turned over to the generals.

There is a very narrow window, commencing with Lloyd George's interventions with the western front and ending in the early 1980s with the Falklands and the US involvement in Lebanon, where the political leadership of single nations micro-managed at least some military campaigns from the Head of Government's office.

There is no military or civilian command problem in having an EU army. Frankly within a week we could put together a command structure for a joint UK-Russian-St Lucian-Burundi operation to support anti-terrorist operations in Tonga.


The problem is not managing the army's operations, it is deciding whether or not to commit the army.

It is very easy to set up a joint command with Russia, St Lucia and Burundi following four unilateral decisions by each nation to join that command; it is not easy to imagine how those nations as a whole could declare war on any other nation.

In reality the use of the "EU battlegroups" and any "EU army" can be vetoed by the memberstates. The EU will ask the memberstates if they will veto the battlegroup's use before deploying it, which means that the EU does not really have a joint command. The EU adds nothing to the existing NATO structure.


(BTW, what's with the 18th century comment? Do you think a single national army fought at Blenheim? Why did the Flanders campaign collapse in the War of the First Coalition?)
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 25
Original post by nulli tertius
This isn't the 18th century.

Multi-national forces, and God knows we have deployed enough of them in the last 25 years, report to committees of the governments of the participants and since those committees are incapable of immediate decisive action, Rules of Engagement have to be put in place at a time when those committees have time for deliberation and consultation with their Home governments. Once they are in place, the war has to be turned over to the generals.

There is a very narrow window, commencing with Lloyd George's interventions with the western front and ending in the early 1980s with the Falklands and the US involvement in Lebanon, where the political leadership of single nations micro-managed at least some military campaigns from the Head of Government's office.

There is no military or civilian command problem in having an EU army. Frankly within a week we could put together a command structure for a joint UK-Russian-St Lucian-Burundi operation to support anti-terrorist operations in Tonga.


Aside from the different languages.
Aside from the different training.
Aside from the different military theory.
Aside from the different equipment.
Aside from the different interests.
Original post by Observatory
The problem is not managing the army's operations, it is deciding whether or not to commit the army.

It is very easy to set up a joint command with Russia, St Lucia and Burundi following four unilateral decisions by each nation to join that command; it is not easy to imagine how those nations as a whole could declare war on any other nation.

In reality the use of the "EU battlegroups" and any "EU army" can be vetoed by the memberstates. The EU will ask the memberstates if they will veto the battlegroup's use before deploying it, which means that the EU does not really have a joint command. The EU adds nothing to the existing NATO structure.


I don't think we are saying anything very much different. Both you and I are assuming decisions of war and peace are being made by Merkel and Cameron rather than Juncker and Tusk. I am saying it is no big deal and you are saying it adds nothing.

I suppose what it really adds is a mechanism to defend Ireland from air or sea-borne threats and a mechanism to deploy the Finnish and Swedish armed forces.

Original post by Observatory
(BTW, what's with the 18th century comment? Do you think a single national army fought at Blenheim? Why did the Flanders campaign collapse in the War of the First Coalition?)


Because there is no structure between a field commander and his own sovereign. You start to see in the 19th century reporting to allied political/diplomatic representatives by the commanders of multi-national forces.
Original post by EuanF
Aside from the different languages.
Aside from the different training.
Aside from the different military theory.
Aside from the different equipment.
Aside from the different interests.


Not aside from from any of those things.

The agreement to create a multinational force for an objective shows the identity of interest for the subject matter of the campaign. It doesn't mean the allies don't have different interests elsewhere.

As to the other matters, the armies of the world have become deployable without sharing any of these things. Essentially the longstanding NATO idea of standardising and rendering everything interoperable has been superseded. There may be one or two exceptions; the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army perhaps, but you could mix and match most of the world's armies without difficulty.

For example India, Bangladesh and Pakistan together contribute 6,000 troops to the UN Peacekeeping force in the Congo.
(edited 7 years ago)
No. The other EU nations prove time and time again their militaries are terrible. EU countries need to spend more on the military. I don't support an EU military where British soldiers will be dying to protect some poor irrelevant country in Eastern Europe.
Original post by nulli tertius
I don't think we are saying anything very much different. Both you and I are assuming decisions of war and peace are being made by Merkel and Cameron rather than Juncker and Tusk. I am saying it is no big deal and you are saying it adds nothing.

I think you are going off-topic. If Merkel and Cameron make the decisions it is not an EU army. There is not a NATO army. NATO is an organisation to which many different armies, navies and air forces contribute, not a single military.

The question is would I trust the EU with an army. The answer is no because the EU has no person or institution that could declare war with perceived legitimacy and without being countermanded by other organisations.

If there were such a person or institution - which is purely hypothetical - my answer would still be no because the creation of such a commander-in-chief would effectively be the end of this country's sovereignty. The military would be used to to rail road memberstates over other policies that I regard as harmful.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Observatory
I think you are going off-topic. If Merkel and Cameron make the decisions it is not an EU army. There is not a NATO army. NATO is an organisation to which many different armies, navies and air forces contribute, not a single military.


In the real world there is never going to be anything other than that.

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