"Feminism is useless in the first world"
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Original post by TrueDetective01
Jesus, you are no different from the sociopaths that run government
if being a sociopath means acknowledging the fact that women, non-straight people and other minorities still face discrimination, then so be it!
Original post by nomnomnomm
"because they generally do not want to go into it" says you, who presumably knows what all women want
just because he never talked about it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have equal representation. which seats exactly?
just because he never talked about it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have equal representation. which seats exactly?
Where have I said that I know what all women want? I am talking in general which is true but you ignore that and say I am talking about women being more unlikely as a whole there will always be women who want to work in politics and they have the same opportunity as men and in some cases more.
So you want women to get a job not on merit but just because they are women
Original post by nomnomnomm
if being a sociopath means acknowledging the fact that women, non-straight people and other minorities still face discrimination, then so be it!
So you are anti-freedom then?
Original post by joecphillips
They have the same opportunity as men but in general there are less women who want to do this.
I'm not saying that we should discriminate but what you are saying is rediculous if you are a Tory voter in Sunderland you are not the norm and people will say something and it is acceptable, where did I say it was not normal? I am saying that no matter what people will judge you.
I'm not trans but from what I have saw a significant proportion is that there are much more complicated issues which you try to minimise but are highly important here.
I'm not saying that we should discriminate but what you are saying is rediculous if you are a Tory voter in Sunderland you are not the norm and people will say something and it is acceptable, where did I say it was not normal? I am saying that no matter what people will judge you.
I'm not trans but from what I have saw a significant proportion is that there are much more complicated issues which you try to minimise but are highly important here.
alright, but we agree that men and women should have equal opportunities, for example in being elected MP for something, right?
being gay is nothing compared to being a Tory voter. you're saying this as if Tory voters face discrimination but that's hardly true, i don't think. i'm saying that people should not judge people for loving whoever they want. if i marry a woman, let me marry a woman, damnit. it's homophobic to "judge" (=think badly of someone) someone for loving someone of the same sex.
minimise? as in, not mentioning their other issues, such as depression? (which tends to be common in trans people, again because of things such as transphobia). feminism asks cis people acknowledge the correct genders of trans people, which will hopefully eliminate transphobia. if we work towards that, i think this will help their other issues as well
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by TrueDetective01
So you are anti-freedom then?
anti-freedom to spout hate speech, yes. working towards justice for persecuted minorities isn't exactly restricting anyone's freedom
There's various branches of feminism so concluding feminism to be useful /useless to women depending on the economical state of the country they live in is redundant.
Lets talk about different branches of feminism first, there are loads from eco-feminism, religious feminism (splits off again into branches), marxist feminism, bourgeois feminism, trans feminism, intersectional feminism, "white" feminism... you get the idea. You can read up on their different philosophies in your own time if you fancy.
So the premise I've seen a lot against feminism is that women in MEDC's have rights already, which is an improbable one. Yes, women have gained rights over the 20th century and there are anti discrimination laws but hey there are laws for many things that aren't strictly followed. A few of them include:
The Abortion Act in the UK and Northern Island - makes it surprisingly difficult for a female to terminate a pregnancy regardless of whether the female has been raped etc.
Rape in English Law is also extremely archaic: Feminists believe in equal rights for all genders (some branches don't) and under English law there is nothing that states that raping males is a offence which many feminists have been protesting against.
I could go on...
There are also other issues that are more well known but disregarded.
The gender pay gap - this affects WoC in MEDC's more than white women so applying intersectional theory, the gender pay gap issue becomes a detailed discussion.
Pornography and the treatment of the female sex and a "woman's body" Judith Butler described this as the "repeated stylisation of the body -- to create the appearance of substance, of a natural being." - basically women are expected to act, look or behave in x,y or z way to be recognised in society.
Lets talk about different branches of feminism first, there are loads from eco-feminism, religious feminism (splits off again into branches), marxist feminism, bourgeois feminism, trans feminism, intersectional feminism, "white" feminism... you get the idea. You can read up on their different philosophies in your own time if you fancy.
So the premise I've seen a lot against feminism is that women in MEDC's have rights already, which is an improbable one. Yes, women have gained rights over the 20th century and there are anti discrimination laws but hey there are laws for many things that aren't strictly followed. A few of them include:
The Abortion Act in the UK and Northern Island - makes it surprisingly difficult for a female to terminate a pregnancy regardless of whether the female has been raped etc.
Rape in English Law is also extremely archaic: Feminists believe in equal rights for all genders (some branches don't) and under English law there is nothing that states that raping males is a offence which many feminists have been protesting against.
I could go on...
There are also other issues that are more well known but disregarded.
The gender pay gap - this affects WoC in MEDC's more than white women so applying intersectional theory, the gender pay gap issue becomes a detailed discussion.
Pornography and the treatment of the female sex and a "woman's body" Judith Butler described this as the "repeated stylisation of the body -- to create the appearance of substance, of a natural being." - basically women are expected to act, look or behave in x,y or z way to be recognised in society.
Original post by joecphillips
Where have I said that I know what all women want? I am talking in general which is true but you ignore that and say I am talking about women being more unlikely as a whole there will always be women who want to work in politics and they have the same opportunity as men and in some cases more.
So you want women to get a job not on merit but just because they are women
So you want women to get a job not on merit but just because they are women
but we agree that men and women should have equal opportunities, correct?
no, not at all. i'm not saying "right, let's kick out every man and replace them all with women." i'm saying, "let's have more qualified women instead of it being men all the time." a qualified women can do just as well as a qualified man
Original post by nomnomnomm
alright, but we agree that men and women should have equal opportunities, for example in being elected MP for something, right?
being gay is nothing compared to being a Tory voter. you're saying this as if Tory voters face discrimination but that's hardly true, i don't think. i'm saying that people should not judge people for loving whoever they want. if i marry a woman, let me marry a woman, damnit. it's homophobic to "judge" (=think badly of someone) someone for loving someone of the same sex.
minimise? as in, not mentioning their other issues, such as depression? (which tends to be common in trans people, again because of things such as transphobia). feminism asks cis people acknowledge the correct genders of trans people, i.e. eliminate transphobia. if we work towards that, i think this will help their other issues as well
being gay is nothing compared to being a Tory voter. you're saying this as if Tory voters face discrimination but that's hardly true, i don't think. i'm saying that people should not judge people for loving whoever they want. if i marry a woman, let me marry a woman, damnit. it's homophobic to "judge" (=think badly of someone) someone for loving someone of the same sex.
minimise? as in, not mentioning their other issues, such as depression? (which tends to be common in trans people, again because of things such as transphobia). feminism asks cis people acknowledge the correct genders of trans people, i.e. eliminate transphobia. if we work towards that, i think this will help their other issues as well
Yes that is why I'm in favour of removing all women shortlists to make the opportunity equal.
It is not homophobic to judge people judge everything about everybody stop ignoring human nature if you want a tolerant society you have to accept people will judge people
You are saying that transphobia is the reason there are so many suicides but it is a lot more complicated than that stop trying to simplify something so much it ignores the problems.
Original post by nomnomnomm
anti-freedom to spout hate speech, yes. working towards justice for persecuted minorities isn't exactly restricting anyone's freedom
Fyi, I am of minority background and i definitely do not need you speaking for me, mate
.Original post by joecphillips
Yes that is why I'm in favour of removing all women shortlists to make the opportunity equal.
It is not homophobic to judge people judge everything about everybody stop ignoring human nature if you want a tolerant society you have to accept people will judge people
You are saying that transphobia is the reason there are so many suicides but it is a lot more complicated than that stop trying to simplify something so much it ignores the problems.
It is not homophobic to judge people judge everything about everybody stop ignoring human nature if you want a tolerant society you have to accept people will judge people
You are saying that transphobia is the reason there are so many suicides but it is a lot more complicated than that stop trying to simplify something so much it ignores the problems.
"women shortlists"? could you provide a link to this please? i have never heard of them
"human nature" - no, it is not natural to think same-sex attraction is icky, which is what society's been thinking for far too long now. it shouldn't be acceptable to think badly of gay people, bi people, whatever. accepting that people will "judge others", which is what we've done for hundreds of years, hasn't exactly led to a more tolerant society, has it? what with same-sex attraction being criminalised up until very recently and all
what are the problems, then? please be more specific. no, i'm saying transphobia is a significant problem which affects trans people. feminism aims to get rid of transphobia. for many trans people, transphobia is significant: it leads to them hating their bodies, depression, etc. this can lead to suicide. obviously like you said, transphobia isn't always the reason why some trans people commit suicide, but it's certainly an important factor.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by TrueDetective01
Fyi, I am of minority background and i definitely do not need you speaking for me, mate .
.me too! i'm gay AND a woman! i speak for myself
Original post by nomnomnomm
"women shortlists"? could you provide a link to this please? i have never heard of them
"human nature" - no, it is not natural to think same-sex attraction is icky, which is what society's been thinking for far too long now. it shouldn't be acceptable to think badly of gay people, bi people, whatever. accepting that people will "judge others", which is what we've done for hundreds of years, hasn't exactly led to a more tolerant society, has it? what with same-sex attraction being criminalised up until very recently and all
what are the problems, then? please be more specific. no, i'm saying transphobia is a significant problem which affects trans people. feminism aims to get rid of transphobia. for many trans people, transphobia is significant: it leads to them hating their bodies, depression, etc. this can lead to suicide. obviously like you said, transphobia isn't always the reason why trans people commit suicide, but it's certainly an important factor.
"human nature" - no, it is not natural to think same-sex attraction is icky, which is what society's been thinking for far too long now. it shouldn't be acceptable to think badly of gay people, bi people, whatever. accepting that people will "judge others", which is what we've done for hundreds of years, hasn't exactly led to a more tolerant society, has it? what with same-sex attraction being criminalised up until very recently and all
what are the problems, then? please be more specific. no, i'm saying transphobia is a significant problem which affects trans people. feminism aims to get rid of transphobia. for many trans people, transphobia is significant: it leads to them hating their bodies, depression, etc. this can lead to suicide. obviously like you said, transphobia isn't always the reason why trans people commit suicide, but it's certainly an important factor.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/22/-sp-should-there-be-all-women-shortlists
It's human nature to judge.
There is the fact that they can never give birth and their bodies will never be how they want them to be among many other reasons.
Original post by joecphillips
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/22/-sp-should-there-be-all-women-shortlists
It's human nature to judge.
There is the fact that they can never give birth and their bodies will never be how they want them to be among many other reasons.
It's human nature to judge.
There is the fact that they can never give birth and their bodies will never be how they want them to be among many other reasons.
thank you for the link. that's not something i personally agree with - obviously, men and women should have equal opportunities - but it's not as if it's been put in place. hm, but it could be good for certain seats? and we do need more representation of women... i'll have to think more on that
no, it's homophobic. it is not natural to think same-sex attraction is "weird" or "bad".
not all trans people want to give birth. also, have you never heard of hormones? some trans women who feel they need it take oestrogen, for example. i've heard them referred to as "breast mints". never underestimate the power of hormones and surgeries such as the obvious one and for facial reconstruction; trans people can and certainly do achieve the body they feel happiest in
Original post by nomnomnomm
thank you for the link. that's not something i personally agree with - obviously, men and women should have equal opportunities - but it's not as if it's been put in place. hm, but it could be good for certain seats? and we do need more representation of women... i'll have to think more on that
no, it's homophobic. it is not natural to think same-sex attraction is "weird" or "bad".
not all trans people want to give birth. also, have you never heard of hormones? some trans women who feel they need it take oestrogen, for example. i've heard them referred to as "breast mints". never underestimate the power of hormones and surgeries such as the obvious one and for facial reconstruction; trans people can and certainly do achieve the body they feel happiest in
no, it's homophobic. it is not natural to think same-sex attraction is "weird" or "bad".
not all trans people want to give birth. also, have you never heard of hormones? some trans women who feel they need it take oestrogen, for example. i've heard them referred to as "breast mints". never underestimate the power of hormones and surgeries such as the obvious one and for facial reconstruction; trans people can and certainly do achieve the body they feel happiest in
Equal opportunity does not mean equal results which is what that is backing if you think that is opportunity then you will be open to male only seats as well.
It natural to judge if you are about tolerance then you need to accept people will judge and you have to accept this as long as they aren't doing anything about it what right do you have to become the thought police?
Again where did I say all? I have heard of hormones do you think this magically solves the body problems? some get upset about what I have said but you just pretend it isn't really an issue that factors into the suicide rate which it does as it doesn't fit into your little narrative that every problem is caused by a phobia.
If you want to talk about suicide rates then let's talk about why men are much more likely to die by suicide than women how you put it I will say it is because of missandry only.
This thread is comedy gold 😂😂
I've already expressed my views before but srsly guys I thought society had progressed to the stage where being low key feminist was normal, like being low-key LGBT friendly and low-key race equality. (As in, not directly campaigning for the tackling of these issues but indeed at least acknowledging situations exemplifying inequality in modern society and standing against them.)
The notion of equality in its purist form in society is somewhat of a fruitless ambition in itself, yet many claim equality has been achieved, and that this then renders feminism useless.
Equality will never be achieved, feminism will never be "over."
So guys, better buckle up for the cancerous ride of fun.
I mean, who knows? One day the feminists may join leagues with the LGBT and Black Power groups and topple the straight white male dominated society built on years and years of oppression, what a frightening dystopia.
P.S - Misandry is questionable and has faced its share of criticism - although I believe it does exist in some minute form and has no place in the feminist movement. For example, I have a friend who once wrote a "feminist" essay deeming males as the weaker sex because their testicles were on the outside and their nipples had no specific beneficial function; ironically neither did hers considering she hadn't had a child. So yeah - not really sure what she was thinking, but Chimamanda would not have been proud (and neither was I) - safe to say that essay did horribly haha
P.P.S - The difficulty with any movement is the different sects. One believes this, one believes that: and it altogether results in a lack of cohesion. This then allows the outsider to point to one sect, and go here are the bad examples, I disagree with your movement. Yet it goes deeper than that base level. Some feminists believe X some believe Y: they argue among themselves about what is and is not. The role of the outsider, the intelligent outsider, at least, is to acknowledge these differences - find a feminism that suits what you believe. If none of them suit you well then you see a society more cohesive than we do, and that's pretty much all I have to say - oh yeah, and you should probs stay away from Tumblr haha
See ya boys, keep the salt pumping so the tumour can keep lumping xox
I've already expressed my views before but srsly guys I thought society had progressed to the stage where being low key feminist was normal, like being low-key LGBT friendly and low-key race equality. (As in, not directly campaigning for the tackling of these issues but indeed at least acknowledging situations exemplifying inequality in modern society and standing against them.)
The notion of equality in its purist form in society is somewhat of a fruitless ambition in itself, yet many claim equality has been achieved, and that this then renders feminism useless.
Equality will never be achieved, feminism will never be "over."
So guys, better buckle up for the cancerous ride of fun.
I mean, who knows? One day the feminists may join leagues with the LGBT and Black Power groups and topple the straight white male dominated society built on years and years of oppression, what a frightening dystopia.
P.S - Misandry is questionable and has faced its share of criticism - although I believe it does exist in some minute form and has no place in the feminist movement. For example, I have a friend who once wrote a "feminist" essay deeming males as the weaker sex because their testicles were on the outside and their nipples had no specific beneficial function; ironically neither did hers considering she hadn't had a child. So yeah - not really sure what she was thinking, but Chimamanda would not have been proud (and neither was I) - safe to say that essay did horribly haha
P.P.S - The difficulty with any movement is the different sects. One believes this, one believes that: and it altogether results in a lack of cohesion. This then allows the outsider to point to one sect, and go here are the bad examples, I disagree with your movement. Yet it goes deeper than that base level. Some feminists believe X some believe Y: they argue among themselves about what is and is not. The role of the outsider, the intelligent outsider, at least, is to acknowledge these differences - find a feminism that suits what you believe. If none of them suit you well then you see a society more cohesive than we do, and that's pretty much all I have to say - oh yeah, and you should probs stay away from Tumblr haha
See ya boys, keep the salt pumping so the tumour can keep lumping xox
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by nomnomnomm
me too! i'm gay AND a woman! i speak for myself
No, you definitely do not speak for yourself. You have sociopaths doing it for you
Original post by joecphillips
Equal opportunity does not mean equal results which is what that is backing if you think that is opportunity then you will be open to male only seats as well.
It natural to judge if you are about tolerance then you need to accept people will judge and you have to accept this as long as they aren't doing anything about it what right do you have to become the thought police?
Again where did I say all? I have heard of hormones do you think this magically solves the body problems? some get upset about what I have said but you just pretend it isn't really an issue that factors into the suicide rate which it does as it doesn't fit into your little narrative that every problem is caused by a phobia.
If you want to talk about suicide rates then let's talk about why men are much more likely to die by suicide than women how you put it I will say it is because of missandry only.
It natural to judge if you are about tolerance then you need to accept people will judge and you have to accept this as long as they aren't doing anything about it what right do you have to become the thought police?
Again where did I say all? I have heard of hormones do you think this magically solves the body problems? some get upset about what I have said but you just pretend it isn't really an issue that factors into the suicide rate which it does as it doesn't fit into your little narrative that every problem is caused by a phobia.
If you want to talk about suicide rates then let's talk about why men are much more likely to die by suicide than women how you put it I will say it is because of missandry only.
i never said i supported it
tolerant of homophobes? no thank you. i am sick of feeling weird for loving women. i don't even know if i'll have like, an open relationship with a woman in the future because of the traditional attitudes of my family, worrying what other people think (as if being gay is something to be ashamed of! ridiculous), etc. thought police? are you saying that accepting that some people are gay is restrictive, now?
of course hormones aren't a magic solution, but from what i've seen it helps a lot of trans people who want to transition. upset about what? hormones?? you're saying that some trans people get upset because of the hormones they take??
yes, the problem is the phobia. the problem is the discrimination imposed on trans people by cis people because of this phobia, this failure to understand trans people, this weirdly persistent belief i've seen in many places that trans people are "sick", "wrong", whatever. please, at least tell me you don't support transphobia.
i've heard about the suicide rate being higher for men than for women, it's very sad. i doubt it's because of misandry like you said. i've seen some people say that it's because it's far less socially acceptable for men to express their feelings to their friends, meaning any issues they have are repressed rather than dealt with, or something like that
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by TrueDetective01
No, you definitely do not speak for yourself. You have sociopaths doing it for you
oh no! sociopaths are in control of my computer!! someone HELP!!
i think i know my own opinions, thank you!
Original post by nomnomnomm
i never said i supported it
tolerant of homophobes? no thank you. i am sick of feeling weird for loving women. i don't even know if i'll have like, an open relationship with a woman in the future because of the traditional attitudes of my family, worrying what other people think (as if being gay is something to be ashamed of! ridiculous), etc. thought police? are you saying that accepting that some people are gay is restrictive, now?
of course hormones aren't a magic solution, but from what i've seen it helps a lot of trans people who want to transition. upset about what? hormones?? you're saying that some trans people get upset because of the hormones they take??
yes, the problem is the phobia. the problem is the discrimination imposed on trans people by cis people because of this phobia, this failure to understand trans people, this weirdly persistent belief i've seen in many places that trans people are "sick", "wrong", whatever. please, at least tell me you don't support transphobia.
i've heard about the suicide rate being higher for men than for women, it's very sad. i doubt it's because of misandry like you said. i've seen some people say that it's because it's far less socially acceptable for men to express their feelings to their friends, meaning any issues they have are repressed rather than dealt with, or something like that
tolerant of homophobes? no thank you. i am sick of feeling weird for loving women. i don't even know if i'll have like, an open relationship with a woman in the future because of the traditional attitudes of my family, worrying what other people think (as if being gay is something to be ashamed of! ridiculous), etc. thought police? are you saying that accepting that some people are gay is restrictive, now?
of course hormones aren't a magic solution, but from what i've seen it helps a lot of trans people who want to transition. upset about what? hormones?? you're saying that some trans people get upset because of the hormones they take??
yes, the problem is the phobia. the problem is the discrimination imposed on trans people by cis people because of this phobia, this failure to understand trans people, this weirdly persistent belief i've seen in many places that trans people are "sick", "wrong", whatever. please, at least tell me you don't support transphobia.
i've heard about the suicide rate being higher for men than for women, it's very sad. i doubt it's because of misandry like you said. i've seen some people say that it's because it's far less socially acceptable for men to express their feelings to their friends, meaning any issues they have are repressed rather than dealt with, or something like that
So you are intolerant
Like you say it helps some people but not all for some that isn't enough and sometimes this is bad enough to make people commit suicide but you know ignore that claim it is all transphobia.
Those reasons don't matter because missandry.
Original post by nomnomnomm
oh no! sociopaths are in control of my computer!! someone HELP!!
i think i know my own opinions, thank you!
i think i know my own opinions, thank you!
Hahahahaha yeah, keep thinking that
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