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I think Britain is going to remain in the EU.

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Reply 240
Avatar for Trill
Trill
14
Original post by generallee
Well over a million non Europeans have crossed the European continent without let or hindrance to claim a new life in Germany, Sweden and the UK over the past few months, and are continuing to do so, yet you think you won't be able to get to Ibiza on holiday if we leave? :hmmmm2:

Sounds likely.


You miss understand me. I said you would need a visa, or it will be even more expensive to go to places like Ibiza and the process would be longer, I did not say we can not go there.
Original post by Trill
You miss understand me. I said you would need a visa, or it will be even more expensive to go to places like Ibiza and the process would be longer, I did not say we can not go there.


You don't need a visa to go the USA, or Canada or Australia or New Zealand, or Chile, or Brazil, or Argentina, or Albania, or Malaysia, or Namibia or Singapore or Jamaica, or Honduras or well practically anywhere really....

You check the list. In fact the only places you DO need a visa are hell holes like Saudi Arabia and North Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens.

So why on earth do you think you would need one to go to Spain?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by sleepysnooze
...what? you can't just ignore the fact that your argument doesn't work when applied to other EU countries, because your argument was that the UK is doing better *because* of the EU - why isn't france doing better because of the EU, then? and if you're going to say "well france is less capitalist" (a non-EU factor), why can't others refer to non-EU factors for the UK's growth? I don't understand how you can justify that kind of contradiction


That's not my argument. I'm not trying to make a case for France.

The point is the UK has done just fine within the EU. Better than fine. It's done well.

Have a read of this (includes the source of the chart i used above) and as published in The Times a couple of days ago:
http://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by generallee
You don't need a visa to go the USA, or Canada or Australia or New Zealand, or Chile, or Brazil, or Argentina, or Albania, or Malaysia, or Namibia or Singapore or Jamaica, or Honduras or well practically anywhere really....

You check the list. In fact the only places you DO need a visa are hell holes like Saudi Arabia and North Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens.

So why on earth do you think you would need one to go to Spain?


There's every chance if Gibraltar becomes the next Falklands. Or at least becomes an even more significant point of contention than it is now.
Original post by jneill
There's every chance if Gibraltar becomes the next Falklands. Or at least becomes an even more significant point of contention than it is now.


That is a laughable suggestion. Risible. You guys are really scraping the barrel now with Project Fear.

Spain are going to invade Gibraltar if we leave the EU?

:rolleyes:

Granted, they have long had signer's remorse over the Treaty of Utrecht, but they didn't dare invade even when they were run by a fascist dictator, who could have attacked in 1940 with the full support of the ruler of continental Europe, Nazi Germany. Hitler tried to get Franco to do it.

So it is hardly likely they would do it when we are both NATO allies, is it?

Can't say I am an expert on the EXACT details of that treaty, but I suspect invading another member state is a bit of a no no. Could be wrong of course...

There may be restrictions on travel between Gibraltar and Spain, if there were a period of tension. They are periodically introduced. But the UK mainland and Ibiza? Nah...

They want the money.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by generallee
That is a laughable suggestion. Risible. You guys are really scraping the barrel now with Project Fear.


Glad it amused you.

There's a fair bit of scaremongering by Brexiters; Turkey.
Original post by jneill
That's not my argument. I'm not trying to make a case for France.

The point is the UK has done just fine within the EU. Better than fine. It's done well.

Have a read of this (includes the source of the chart i used above) and as published in The Times a couple of days ago:
http://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit


you must be so proud of the strength of your argument
"the UK isn't absolutely crumbling within the EU - therefore, despite the clear problems of the EU, we must stay based on this fact"
are you the most die-hard small c conservative on the planet or something? is the EU a sacred tradition to you or something that must never be violated?
Original post by sleepysnooze
you must be so proud of the strength of your argument
"the UK isn't absolutely crumbling within the EU - therefore, despite the clear problems of the EU, we must stay based on this fact"
are you the most die-hard small c conservative on the planet or something? is the EU a sacred tradition to you or something that must never be violated?


no but I've been around long enough to have serious doubts about the ability of people like my local MP (Chris Grayling) to do better.
Original post by jneill
no but I've been around long enough to have serious doubts about the ability of people like my local MP (Chris Grayling) to do better.


how long is "long enough" to you?
Original post by sleepysnooze
how long is "long enough" to you?


I'm a parent not a student.
Original post by jneill
I'm a parent not a student.


...what are you doing on TSR then
Original post by Reaver Daniels
I hope we remain, but our generation needs to vote. If we don't then the older generations will vote and take us out.

Possibly, but don't tarnish all the older generation with that brush (see above...).
Reply 252
Avatar for DJKL
DJKL
17
Original post by jneill
no but I've been around long enough to have serious doubts about the ability of people like my local MP (Chris Grayling) to do better.


But of course it is not politicians who make the country prosper, it is individuals and business, all politicians do is attempt to chose priorities spending money earned by individuals and business. They do not build houses, they may pay a business to build council houses, but they actually create nothing themselves.

Their purpose is to facilitate and create an environment where economic activity can thrive, so frankly their need for competence is pretty academic re economic activity.

If all of them went on holiday for five years , changed nothing, the economy will continue to function in their absence; I suspect I could make a pretty good argument that business would do better as fewer uncertainties that today's marvelous idea will become tomorrow's we must reform.

One of the reasons the German economy operates as it does is that their politicians tend to steer a pretty straight course over the long term, there is a degree of overall consensus, and business can then plan ahead for 5-10 years.

There is a need for government to temper the excesses of the private sector, to regulate, to protect,but frankly over regulation is a killer that stifles growth.

I also am very long in the tooth, I have seen governments come and go, and at times the private sector succeeds despite government not because of government.

I cannot predict the economic outcome of either remain or leave, I doubt anyone can , an economy is not a computer programme that if x then y, there are too many individuals,events, variables, but frankly I very much doubt any of the talking heads, spouting x or y will be the economic outcome, have much of a real idea.

As someone who has worked in the private sector for a very long time, who spends their days dealing with more and more things I or my employer now need to embrace, learn to deal with, pay for, all because some politicians somewhere, who has never made anything, produced anything, sold anything, thinks it ought to be done, anything, I mean anything, that reduces red tape will be a godsend.

Twenty years ago no issue, I would have said we stay in the EU, even ten years ago same answer, these days I am much more on the fence.

The catch is not that all laws derive from the EU, they do not, the point is that having that slow grinding monolith of government overarching sets the tone for national governments, they legislate so we do, we do so they do, passing laws, having initiatives seems to have become the purpose of life, targets, measurement, the world is frankly mad.

So, whilst still not decided, if I really thought leaving the EU would change the UK mindeset, even if we had a rough 5-10 years as a result, I would vote for it like a shot;the question really is can our business entities surge forth and deliver across the world after having been handcuffed for 20 odd years?
Original post by generallee
That is a laughable suggestion. Risible. You guys are really scraping the barrel now with Project Fear.

Spain are going to invade Gibraltar if we leave the EU?

:rol.


No, they could close the border and cut off work for thousands of people.. That is why 99% of people in Gibraltar are voting to stay in the EU.
Original post by XcitingStuart
Isn't it more "free to set your own tariffs"?

That's not unworkable.

e.g. we could increase the tariff on the dumped Chinese steel to sth more sensible than 9%.


Lol and start a trade war with the Chinese as well. That sounds clever.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Trill
For the same reason Scotland didn't leave, because we would have to establish ourselves as truly independent from the union. Then renegotiate things from trade to travel with the countries. It has been hypothesised that the latter could take up 10 to 15 years.


10-15 years is simple fear mongering, simple logic says so. WRT travel, look at the Schengen visa nations, paying particular attention to those not on the list, I wouldn't only bet a pound to a penny, but a grand to a penny we will maintain visa free travel. As for trade, the mostly irrelevant nations the eu has trade deals will immediately sign to maintain the current deals, after all, if they negotiate it only gets worse for them. As for the eu itself, we are the biggest export nation of the other 27 nations; they are a declining proportion of our exports, the converse is pretty much false, it's in their interest to get a good deal now before they're irrelevant to us.

NB: the US is the biggest non EU export market of the EU, but even when we include our US exports we are a significantly bigger partner than the US, and about a quarter of US exports from the EU is the UK.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by sleepysnooze
...what are you doing on TSR then


ran out of boring, recycled brexit points to argue?
Reply 257
Avatar for Trill
Trill
14
[QUOTE=Jammy Duel;65587645]10-15 years is simple fear mongering, simple logic says so. WRT travel, look at the Schengen visa nations, paying particular attention to those not on the list, I wouldn't only bet a pound to a penny, but a grand to a penny we will maintain visa free travel. As for trade, the mostly irrelevant nations the eu has trade deals will immediately sign to maintain the current deals, after all, if they negotiate it only gets worse for them. As for the eu itself, we are the biggest export nation of the other 27 nations; they are a declining proportion of our exports, the converse is pretty much false, it's in their interest to get a good deal now before they're irrelevant to us.

NB: the US is the biggest non EU export market of the EU, but even when we include our US exports we are a significantly bigger partner than the US, and about a quarter of US exports from the EU is the UK.

Posted from TSR Mobile
As an MSc student with a strong basis for critical analysis, I perceptive that your argument is only one context of many. You should also consider a context where the individuals who are 18 to 22/23 with student loans, not well versed in politics but would like to experience their rites of passage to party in the sunny islands of Europe; labour are targeting exactly this target audience. Whilst I agree some stats are scaremongering, they will still work on some.
Reply 258
Avatar for Trill
Trill
14
[QUOTE=generallee;65578869]You don't need a visa to go the USA, or Canada or Australia or New Zealand, or Chile, or Brazil, or Argentina, or Albania, or Malaysia, or Namibia or Singapore or Jamaica, or Honduras or well practically anywhere really....

You check the list. In fact the only places you DO need a visa are hell holes like Saudi Arabia and North Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens.

So why on earth do you think you would need one to go to Spain?

Assuming you are a student on the student room, it's worrying that you would cite Wikipedia.

Momentarily, we do not need a visa for the countries in the EU. Once we leave the EU, we have renegotiate these terms so that we still maintain the no visa policy. Which can take up 15 years according to the Labour Party.
Nicola Sturgeon will wipe the floor with Boring Boris tonight.

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