Why do Brexiters oppose scottish independence
Surely its a bit hypocritical to completely ignore and dismiss economic arguments from well respected institutes and base your entire argument on "freedom" while hating on the SNP for doing the same thing in 2014. Why do you Brexiters seem to as a whole hate the SNP when Britain is the scotland of Europe? Is it because racism undermines logic?
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Because in both cases, it's a nationalist argument. Nationalism is not, however, an ideology that can be universalised: it inherently leads to disputes, violence and bloodshed because people's perception of what their "nation" is just happens to be entirely subjective. For some, it's Scotland - for some it's Britain. Neither is the right answer, because both sides are morons who try to apply absolutes, instead of realising that people's identities are fluid, multi-layered and complex.
In short, they're both playing by the same ideology, just investing themselves in different pieces of coloured cloth flown from a pole. I think that pretty much exposes nationalism as a pile of **** myself, but I suppose there are probably other views out there.
In short, they're both playing by the same ideology, just investing themselves in different pieces of coloured cloth flown from a pole. I think that pretty much exposes nationalism as a pile of **** myself, but I suppose there are probably other views out there.
because the UK only was a merger of two countries.
and well...humans are hypocrites. duuh.. lol.
i'm english and i support scottish independence, brexiters need to read history. England and scotland only united out of mutual convenience, not long-lasting love...
and well...humans are hypocrites. duuh.. lol.
i'm english and i support scottish independence, brexiters need to read history. England and scotland only united out of mutual convenience, not long-lasting love...
Self-interest from english voters plays a big part.
People voting for what they believe is best for their country..
England believing that scotland stayings is best for england
England believing that leaving the EU is best for england.
Those two statements, whilst contradictory in princple, fit together nicely for many english people who just want their country to be the best it can be.
People voting for what they believe is best for their country..
England believing that scotland stayings is best for england
England believing that leaving the EU is best for england.
Those two statements, whilst contradictory in princple, fit together nicely for many english people who just want their country to be the best it can be.
Original post by intelligent con
Surely its a bit hypocritical to completely ignore and dismiss economic arguments from well respected institutes and base your entire argument on "freedom" while hating on the SNP for doing the same thing in 2014. Why do you Brexiters seem to as a whole hate the SNP when Britain is the scotland of Europe? Is it because racism undermines logic?
Many people don't consider Scotland to be an actual country and rather a region of Great Britain.
I know it's officially a country but that's how I feel
Posted from TSR Mobile
First you are making a complete illogical jump in thinking that ALL Brexiteers are unionist and that is not the case. In Scotland the largest number of Brexiteers are the SCOTTISH NATIONALISTS, not the unionists! According to polls only 16pc of unionists want out of the EU in Scotland compared to 36pc of snats (Scot Nats abbrievated). So unless the snats are hating on themselves your question is flawed.
Secondly - those brexiteers who ARE unionist do not see things through the lens of Scotland or England, Wales etc... they see the country as being the UK. Therefore, from their perspective, the two issues are not the same...
Secondly - those brexiteers who ARE unionist do not see things through the lens of Scotland or England, Wales etc... they see the country as being the UK. Therefore, from their perspective, the two issues are not the same...
Original post by calmingforzzzz
i'm english and i support scottish independence, brexiters need to read history. England and scotland only united out of mutual convenience, not long-lasting love...
That's not the case. As Queen Anne said at the time, the Union between Scotland and England was intended to "remove the animosities amongst yourselves, and the jealousies and differences betwixt our two kingdoms" and that "by this union the whole island, being joined in affection and free from all apprehensions of different interest".
It was designed to create one unified kingdom, not some loose union. Indeed, if you go back to James VI/I's advocacy for union, he speaks in terms of committing bigamy by ruling over two kingdoms.
Original post by paul514
Many people don't consider Scotland to be an actual country and rather a region of Great Britain.
I know it's officially a country but that's how I feel
I know it's officially a country but that's how I feel
To be fair ,the language is pretty meaningless unless you are a Scottish nationalist. By every dictionary definition, Scotland is certainly a region of the UK - it may also qualify as a country, but then that involves you swallowing the idea of distinct cultural nations as one of the cornerstones of human interaction. I don't, but I don't think that diminishes Scotland or England or Britain. I just think identity and culture is a bit more complex than all that.
I don't necessarily oppose it, I just think british (full) federalism would be better
but sadly, the SNP don't advocate UK federalism, do they?
if I had to support either UK semi-federalism (currently) or full scottish independence, I'd find it hard to support independence because the UK is obviously a cohesive community without such massive difference between the countries within it - although, obviously, like I said, I think there should be as much devolution as possible, because more democracy is better than less, and full federalism with strong separations of power would maximise democracy without minimising national power
but sadly, the SNP don't advocate UK federalism, do they?
if I had to support either UK semi-federalism (currently) or full scottish independence, I'd find it hard to support independence because the UK is obviously a cohesive community without such massive difference between the countries within it - although, obviously, like I said, I think there should be as much devolution as possible, because more democracy is better than less, and full federalism with strong separations of power would maximise democracy without minimising national power
To be honest I think most of the Brexiters who hate the SNP/Scots probably don't mind the idea of Scotland leaving.
But it's a reasonable position to think that the UK represents an appropriate scale for government but the EU is not, people have different views on what level they think power should be devolved down to.
The UK shares a common language and culture, I even expect most of the Remainers understand this. If we said are you comfortable with having a common United Kingdom army where English and Scottish forces fight together etc that is one thing, if its a case of English and German and Slovakian and Bulgarian forces in a common EU army then its different.
But it's a reasonable position to think that the UK represents an appropriate scale for government but the EU is not, people have different views on what level they think power should be devolved down to.
The UK shares a common language and culture, I even expect most of the Remainers understand this. If we said are you comfortable with having a common United Kingdom army where English and Scottish forces fight together etc that is one thing, if its a case of English and German and Slovakian and Bulgarian forces in a common EU army then its different.
Scotland would be making a big mistake to go independent. Look at the price of oil, they could never survive by themselves lol, stupid SNP.
However, the UK could survive by themselves that's for sure!
However, the UK could survive by themselves that's for sure!
Original post by MagicNMedicine
Despite my dislike of nationalism, at least I have a greater understanding of British nationalism than the Scottish equivalent. Britain in is widest sense is a geographically distinct (barring the anomaly of Ireland) area with a common language.
If I was ever to buy into any sort of nationalism, it would be largely based around common language. Try as you like, it's virtually impossible to create a common political space where there are different languages involved. It's not that governments don't try hard enough to be bi- or multi-lingual, it's that you end up without a shared experience: people read entirely different newspapers, watch different television, read different literature, are roused by different speeches.
That's why I vaguely get it on a British level. Sure, Scotland was distinct in a meaningful way - in the 16th century or thereabouts. Increasingly, however, it is not - and that process carries on. Radio and television bound the UK closer together, particularly the BBC; in Scotland, UK newspapers are increasing their readership while historic Scottish titles are withering on the vine; people are crossing the border ever more regularly for work. Despite the rhetoric of the SNP, we've never been more alike in these islands.
Leaver here. I don't oppose it, if the Scots want to leave the UK in the event of Brexit then that's understandable. I don't think it'd be wise personally but I'm not Scottish and haven't experienced the apathy of various governments over the years towards Scotland first hand.
There's already plenty of devolved powers to Scotland, I don't think it'd be too difficult to process them leaving the UK should they decide to.
There's already plenty of devolved powers to Scotland, I don't think it'd be too difficult to process them leaving the UK should they decide to.
Original post by L i b
That's why I vaguely get it on a British level. Sure, Scotland was distinct in a meaningful way - in the 16th century or thereabouts. Increasingly, however, it is not - and that process carries on. Radio and television bound the UK closer together, particularly the BBC; in Scotland, UK newspapers are increasing their readership while historic Scottish titles are withering on the vine; people are crossing the border ever more regularly for work. Despite the rhetoric of the SNP, we've never been more alike in these islands.
That's why I vaguely get it on a British level. Sure, Scotland was distinct in a meaningful way - in the 16th century or thereabouts. Increasingly, however, it is not - and that process carries on. Radio and television bound the UK closer together, particularly the BBC; in Scotland, UK newspapers are increasing their readership while historic Scottish titles are withering on the vine; people are crossing the border ever more regularly for work. Despite the rhetoric of the SNP, we've never been more alike in these islands.
I agree completely on the nation and language point, Belgium is quite a weak nation state with a divided identity for that reason. You basically have three countries in one, a Flemish speaking north, a French speaking south, and a kind of European city state around Brussels which is French and English speaking.
I think Scottish nationalism is basically about different politics - an area of the UK that feels disconnected from a wealthy southern England, like Liverpool, Newcastle etc, but it has a historic "nation" which those northern cities don't.
Original post by shreddingfish92
I don't think it'd be wise personally but I'm not Scottish and haven't experienced the apathy of various governments over the years towards Scotland first hand.
Quite the contrary, since at least the late 19th century Scotland has been given higher than average public spending, representation at cabinet level in the UK Government and a great deal of attention paid to particular needs (the Highlands and Islands Medical Service, founded in 1913, was effectively a precursor to the NHS and catered to the needs of remote communities).
There's already plenty of devolved powers to Scotland, I don't think it'd be too difficult to process them leaving the UK should they decide to.
Hmm, the adaptation of full taxation and welfare powers would be incredibly complex and costly, not to mention the creation of a military, diplomatic service and a million and one other things. There are still swathes of powers that are pooled across the UK, most of them expressly because they are difficult to disentangle.
I get it, as a Scotsman you probably think about Scotland with about as much concern as I think about Shetland or something: a semi-detached and mildly irritating part of the country that you don't necessarily visit much, if at all. But let's not underestimate the impact disintegrating our shared United Kingdom would have for everyone. I think the risk of it happening post-Brexit is very much overstated, but it's still something to be valued.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by MagicNMedicine
I agree completely on the nation and language point, Belgium is quite a weak nation state with a divided identity for that reason. You basically have three countries in one, a Flemish speaking north, a French speaking south, and a kind of European city state around Brussels which is French and English speaking.
I think Scottish nationalism is basically about different politics - an area of the UK that feels disconnected from a wealthy southern England, like Liverpool, Newcastle etc, but it has a historic "nation" which those northern cities don't.
I think Scottish nationalism is basically about different politics - an area of the UK that feels disconnected from a wealthy southern England, like Liverpool, Newcastle etc, but it has a historic "nation" which those northern cities don't.
I would agree with the above and add that in addition to being a different historic nation it also has a different education system (both at school and to a lesser extent at universities), legal system (mainly re civil law though some criminal law differs), different role of Church and state and maybe, somewhat reducing, a slightly different outlook/worldview, though these days I would not overplay this latter point as to me whilst Scotland has become a far more international country it is difficult to pin particulars to this general feeling.
Its status as a distinct nation lends a slight difference to outlook when observing historic events and people, whilst not universal I think those brought up/educated in Scotland will likely have a keener appreciation of those from history, and culturally, who impacted the world and hailed from here, be it Hume, Adam Smith, Dunlop, Cochrane,Telford,Stevenson, Scott,Fleming,Bell, Burns, Conan Doyle, J K Rowling, Welsh, Maxwell,Baird or Livingstone, and of course in some cases they are very apparent in buildings and street names. Of course not all are/were strictly Scottish but they hold an association that has them adopted into the culture.
The same is true, of course, in England, but as there are far more notables (bigger country) the public's awareness of them , apart from the big names, is possibly diluted which reduces their cultural impact as figures that forge national identity.
History plays a big part. Brexiters are more likely to be traditionalist and preservationalist when it comes to culture, and the use of losing Scotland from the UK/the UK collapsing as a concept is on a similar level to losing the UK and its values to a European super-state and having our sovereignty gnawed at by the EU.
Original post by paul514
Many people don't consider Scotland to be an actual country and rather a region of Great Britain.
I know it's officially a country but that's how I feel
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I know it's officially a country but that's how I feel
Posted from TSR Mobile
It is a nation of its own, the people there remain genetically distinct from those of England. The UK/GB is really a sterile currency union not unlike the EU. There is no such thing as British ethnicity, British culture etc.
Original post by DJKL
Its status as a distinct nation lends a slight difference to outlook when observing historic events and people, whilst not universal I think those brought up/educated in Scotland will likely have a keener appreciation of those from history, and culturally, who impacted the world and hailed from here, be it Hume, Adam Smith, Dunlop, Cochrane,Telford,Stevenson, Scott,Fleming,Bell, Burns, Conan Doyle, J K Rowling, Welsh, Maxwell,Baird or Livingstone, and of course in some cases they are very apparent in buildings and street names. Of course not all are/were strictly Scottish but they hold an association that has them adopted into the culture.
The same is true, of course, in England, but as there are far more notables (bigger country) the public's awareness of them , apart from the big names, is possibly diluted which reduces their cultural impact as figures that forge national identity.
Its status as a distinct nation lends a slight difference to outlook when observing historic events and people, whilst not universal I think those brought up/educated in Scotland will likely have a keener appreciation of those from history, and culturally, who impacted the world and hailed from here, be it Hume, Adam Smith, Dunlop, Cochrane,Telford,Stevenson, Scott,Fleming,Bell, Burns, Conan Doyle, J K Rowling, Welsh, Maxwell,Baird or Livingstone, and of course in some cases they are very apparent in buildings and street names. Of course not all are/were strictly Scottish but they hold an association that has them adopted into the culture.
The same is true, of course, in England, but as there are far more notables (bigger country) the public's awareness of them , apart from the big names, is possibly diluted which reduces their cultural impact as figures that forge national identity.
I think this is what gives Scots a self confidence in their ability to go it alone. Although Scotland has its deprived areas and social problems, for a small country it seems to disproportionately produce a lot of successful people probably because of its long history of impressive universities. So when English people patronise them "you would be in a mess without us to run you" they don't buy it.
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