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Original post by Kadak
Colour changes for methyl orange and phenolphtalein ?


I know that phenolphthalein goes from colourless to pink when alkaline is added.
Original post by Kadak
Colour changes for methyl orange


Orangey/red to yellow.

Original post by Kadak

and phenolphtalein ?


Colourless to pink.

^

In acidic conditions, I think.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Avocado2002
Is this everything or have I missed something? ASMechanisms.pdf


Hydration?
Original post by EricPiphany
I know that phenolphthalein goes from colourless to pink when alkaline is added.


Ty:smile:.
Original post by Anon_98
Orangey/red to yellow.



Colourless to pink.

^

In acidic conditions, I think.


Thank you :smile:.
Reply 785
Could someone explain why NO2 groups are electron withdrawing? Im struggling to understand the chemistry behind it.

Thank you in advance :smile:
Reply 786
Original post by ayvaak
Could someone explain why NO2 groups are electron withdrawing? Im struggling to understand the chemistry behind it.

Thank you in advance :smile:


Draw resonance forms. You can push an electron from N=O to O, etc.
Reply 787
Original post by alow
Draw resonance forms. You can push an electron from N=O to O, etc.


Im not sure i fully understand. The quote something i read online.

"Electron withdrawing groups (EWG) with p bonds to electronegative atoms (e.g. -C=O, -NO2) adjacent to the p system deactivate the aromatic ring by decreasing the electron density on the ring through a resonance withdrawing effect. The resonance only decreases the electron density at the ortho- and para- positions. Hence these sites are less nucleophilic, and so the system tends to react with electrophiles at the meta sites."

The underlined is what i dont seem to understand? How can removing electron density from benzene ring make it less nucleophilic rather than less electrophillic?
Reply 788
Original post by ayvaak
Im not sure i fully understand. The quote something i read online.

"Electron withdrawing groups (EWG) with p bonds to electronegative atoms (e.g. -C=O, -NO2) adjacent to the p system deactivate the aromatic ring by decreasing the electron density on the ring through a resonance withdrawing effect. The resonance only decreases the electron density at the ortho- and para- positions. Hence these sites are less nucleophilic, and so the system tends to react with electrophiles at the meta sites."

The underlined is what i dont seem to understand? How can removing electron density from benzene ring make it less nucleophilic rather than less electrophillic?


Do you know what a resonance form is?
image.jpgCan someone explain how to derive the answer for this kind of a question. How can we differentiate the pH of molecules based off their molecular formulae?
Reply 790
Original post by alow
Do you know what a resonance form is?


Ive drawn resonance structures for CO3 2- and benzene but havent fully understood them

Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 791
Original post by ayvaak
Ive drawn resonance structures for CO3 2- but i havent fully understood it

Posted from TSR Mobile


So, usually when we draw the structures of molecules the drawings do not perfectly represent electron density in the system (which is more accurately described by molecular orbital theory).

Resonance forms help to suggest the electron density (and hence reactivity) of different sites in a molecule without the need for lots of calculations. For most molecules there are many resonance forms you can draw but you want to look out for forms which would be expecially stable, such as those with negative charges localised on oxygens as these will have more of their 'character' in the real molecule. When you draw the resonance form of something like nitrobenzene, the most stable resonance forms are those where you push an electron from the π system to the neutral oxygen of the nitro substituent. Using the Kekulé structure of benzene this gives postivie charges at the ortho and para postitions, and hence these positions will be less likely to donate electrons.
Reply 792
Original post by alow
So, usually when we draw the structures of molecules the drawings do not perfectly represent electron density in the system (which is more accurately described by molecular orbital theory).

Resonance forms help to suggest the electron density (and hence reactivity) of different sites in a molecule without the need for lots of calculations. For most molecules there are many resonance forms you can draw but you want to look out for forms which would be expecially stable, such as those with negative charges localised on oxygens as these will have more of their 'character' in the real molecule. When you draw the resonance form of something like nitrobenzene, the most stable resonance forms are those where you push an electron from the π system to the neutral oxygen of the nitro substituent. Using the Kekulé structure of benzene this gives postivie charges at the ortho and para postitions, and hence these positions will be less likely to donate electrons.



So when they say its a better electrophile as electrons are withdrawn they're talking the functional group -NO2 being a better electrophile?
Reply 793
Original post by ayvaak
So when they say its a better electrophile as electrons are withdrawn they're talking the functional group -NO2 ?


Yes. Electrons are withdrawn from the π system by the nitro substituent.
Reply 794
Original post by alow
Yes. Electrons are withdrawn from the π system by the nitro substituent.


But how how does this allow for the polynitration of nitrobenzene?
Reply 795
Original post by ayvaak
But how how does this allow for the polynitration of nitrobenzene?


What is the mechanism for addition of nitro groups to an aromatic ring?
Reply 796
Original post by alow
What is the mechanism for addition of nitro groups to an aromatic ring?



electrophillic substitution

But isnt there going to be delta+ in ortho and para positions on the benzene molecule thus making those areas less electrophilic as a result of the NO2 group becoming more electrophillic. Why would +NO2 substitute the Hydrogens in those positions?
Reply 797
Original post by ayvaak
electrophillic substitution

But isnt there going to be delta+ in ortho and para positions on the benzene molecule thus making those areas less electrophilic as a result of the NO2 group becoming more electrollic. Why would NO2 substitute the Hydrogens in those positions?


So, you know ortho and para are less likely to have electrophillic substitution occur, which means... ?
Reply 798
Original post by alow
So, you know ortho and para are less likely to have electrophillic substitution occur, which means... ?


it adopts a meta position?
Reply 799
Original post by ayvaak
it adopts a meta position?


Exactly. The wiki page says the reaction produces a 93% meta product, which agrees with our predictions using resonance structures.

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