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So gay people are now being targeted by Islamic extremists in their own countries?

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Original post by BaconandSauce
Yes they are if they also want to be tolerated.


why should they have to accept it to be tolerated?? Both should be tolerated by eachother, even if they don't agree
Original post by QE2
People are allowed to give a **** about what they want to. Whataboutery is never a good argument.

It simply isn't natural for everybody to be affected to the same degree by every event around the world. We react more to things that we relate to, than we do to stuff happening to strangers on the other side of the world.

I'll be honest, I was probably more affected by the death of my dog that I was by yet another suicide bomb in the ME. That's just the way we are.


That isn't an excuse, that's 'just the way we are', how belittling is it that the life of someone that lives closer in mileage to you is somehow more valued than the life of someone elsewhere?
Reply 262
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QE2
20
Original post by Fight Me
Never did I imply that. Infact if anything, everyone else is implying that. They are all crying about 50 people dying in America, and describing it the largest massacre in recent times

In those third world countries you get this stuff every day, on a larger scale
Interesting that to defend yourself against an accusation of using whataboutery, you use more more whataboutery!

Also, you don't get this in all third world countries. Just in a select few where the rule of law breaks down and the rule of dogma takes over.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ShaminiPamini
why should they have to accept it to be tolerated?? Both should be tolerated by eachother, even if they don't agree


You can't ask for your group of choice to be tolerated whilst being intolerant to others

This is not the way it works

The right to be tolerated as a member of the LGBT community is actually more important then the right to have your faith tolerated

Get used to this as its not going to change
Original post by ShaminiPamini
Sure they should understand it, but they are not required to accept it ...

Some people are against certain laws and they are not condemned for standing against those laws and refusing to comply peacefully (with just cause).. the just cause being that it is their belief and religion.

To comply with anti-discrimination laws, all you have to do is not discriminate against LGBT people. You're really not being asked of much and it's not really negotiable either. What you think privately of course and how you express it are I'd say up to the individual, but the rates of genuine violent hate crime are plainly unacceptable.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by -Anonymous_Girl
That isn't an excuse, that's 'just the way we are', how belittling is it that the life of someone that lives closer in mileage to you is somehow more valued than the life of someone elsewhere?


:s-smilie:

Your argument is ludicrous.

By your logic, you should care equally about the death of a random person the other side of the world than the death of a relative.

Moronic.
Original post by Fight Me
They do not have the opportunity and access to the freedom of information we do.

Fundamentally it is wrong to value one human loss over another. We should all be given mutual respect.


It's completely natural and normal for a human being to feel more emotion towards the death of someone closer to them. I would care more if my brother died than the prime minister but it doesn't mean his life means less I value all human lives but it is impossible to try and equal out your emotions for two human beings when you feel a closeness towards one more than the other.

Middle eastern lives do not matter less because the West has shown a huge emotion to people they feel closer to.
Original post by QE2
Either you are not familiar with the Quran, or you are being deliberately dishonest.

5:32 states that "if anyone kills a soul, other than as a punishment for murder or fasad, it is as if..."

Fasad ("mischief":wink: covers a wide range of offences, but includes "disobeying/rejecting god's law".

The next verse (5:33), clearly states that the punishment for those 'waging war on Allah and his messenger', and for fasad, is death.

So we can see that the Quran explicitly permits the killing of people who have transgressed against Islamic law. So any hadith that calls for the death of prople transgressing Islamic law is not contradicting the Quran.

Hope this has helped.




I'll go with that he isn't familiar with the Qur'an.

Most westernised muslims can't tell the Qur'an from a phonebook
Original post by BaconandSauce
You can't ask for your group of choice to be tolerated whilst being intolerant to others

This is not the way it works

The right to be tolerated as a member of the LGBT community is actually more important then the right to have your faith tolerated

Get used to this as its not going to change


How can you put one person's rights above another??
Reply 269
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QE2
20
Original post by temp acc
I wouldn't bother with The_Epicurean. He's one of the most dishonest members on this forum when it comes to Islam. He can write an essay and try to justify garbage to suit his agenda.

For some strange reason, he's always trying to twist Islam into accepting homosexuality.:dontknow:But unfortunately for him, most people can see past the rubbish. I see now he's trying to say that Ibn Kathir would support him too. Utter garbage :tongue:
I was dubious at first, but when you read the whole argument, it is not entirely unreasonable. It is certainly strong enough to be a starting point for rejecting persecution of homosexuals without having to reject any line of the Quran.

There are plenty of Muslims who have accepted modernist revisionism to avoid beeing seen to support slavery or wife beating, so why not the same with homosexuality?

Sometimes, it seems that some Muslims just really want to hate gays, and are not interested in a way to avoid it on doctrinal grounds, they way they are with slavery and domestic violence.
Original post by ShaminiPamini
How can you put one person's rights above another??




That isn't what he's doing.

For God sake drop the whole stupid victim act.
Reply 271
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Josb
6
Original post by Hydeman
The irony being that Wahhabism was itself a reformation of a kind (though Wahhabis would probably call it a restoration/purification).


I was implying a similar reformation as in Christianity. You could however say that Alevi or Ahmadis have already done it. Wahhabi only returned to a "purest" form of Islam; they didn't improve it at all.
Original post by ShaminiPamini
How can you put one person's rights above another??


Because you choose your faith

It is that simple

Get used to it
Original post by Unkempt_One
To comply with anti-discrimination laws, all you have to do is not discriminate against LGBT people. You're really not being asked of much and it's not really negotiable either. What you think privately of course and how you express it are I'd say up to the individual, but the rates of genuine violent hate crime are plainly unacceptable.


Again, IT'S NOT JUST GAY PEOPLE BEING KILLED! It is Christians, Jews, Atheists... everyone!
Original post by ShaminiPamini
Again, IT'S NOT JUST GAY PEOPLE BEING KILLED! It is Christians, Jews, Atheists... everyone!




They all have something in common.


They were all being killed by muslims.
Reply 275
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QE2
20
Original post by temp acc
Ofcourse not. Honestly bro, here's some advice - get off TSR and go learn your religion. If you're asking questions like this and think you know Islam to some extent, there's a serious problem.
But when I point out that Ibn Kathir clearly states that all those who "oppose, contradict or disbelieve" Islam can be killed, or that conversions were made on pain of death, Muslims usually tell me that Ibn Kathir's opinion is not important.

So you are saying that he is an authoritative and accepted scholar of great repute?
Thanks.
Original post by ShaminiPamini
Again, IT'S NOT JUST GAY PEOPLE BEING KILLED! It is Christians, Jews, Atheists... everyone!

You're right but I don't see how that changes the thrust of my point.
Original post by Listers
That isn't what he's doing.

For God sake drop the whole stupid victim act.


They said that the rights of an LGBT person are higher of the rights of a religious person... Plain and simple! Everyone has been affected by this, why is it that the gay community are taking this a sole attack on them? It is an attack on Western culture, a key feature of which is gay rights.
Reply 278
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QE2
20
Original post by xxvine
So what do you want done
About what?
Original post by JohnGreek
Relativism!

People who espouse such antiquated views on anything should be challenged, not left to isolate themselves and further push their cancerous ideology onto their community. Saying that I cannot physically interfere and coerce a religious person to change their behaviour is not the same as saying that I should not be able to intervene and ask them why they choose to act in the way they do.

You are conflating physical force with intellectual stimulus and debate.


Religion is not always about intellect, millions of people believe in miracles that are scientifically impossible.. How can you expect a scientific answer for people's religious beliefs? Sure you can ask them why, but don't condemn them for it.. They are just as entitled to their religious view as they are to their political view.

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