64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote
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Original post by anarchism101
Who have had a lot of civil and guerilla wars, relatively few conventional ones between states.
I don't see how I said anything of the sort, I barely mentioned the EU. I said NATO states didn't (and don't) go to war with each other because of US hegemony, while Warsaw Pact states didn't because of Soviet hegemony.
I don't see how I said anything of the sort, I barely mentioned the EU. I said NATO states didn't (and don't) go to war with each other because of US hegemony, while Warsaw Pact states didn't because of Soviet hegemony.
Which is surely just further breaking down this notion that without the EU peace in Europe would simply fall apart (well, at least we would have drifted off out into the Atlantic to not be part of Europe, apparently)
Original post by offhegoes
And why do you think that Article 50 from the Treaty of European Union, linked to below, which gives members the right to withdraw, will no longer apply?
If the UK joins the Eurogroup political union in 2025 it will sign up to all the pacts and agreements that the Eurozone has signed since 1993. A political union should require a new referendum, but, given Labour, Tory, SNP and Lib-dems all support further union they will use the current referendum as authorisation.
There will be no going back from a Political Union in 9 yrs time.
Why are you using a reply to me to have a gripe about people denying that the EU exists and pretending it is the same thing as the EEC. I have done none of those things.
You don't see me using a reply to you to express my amazement at the strong correlation I see between voting Leave and low intelligence.
You don't see me using a reply to you to express my amazement at the strong correlation I see between voting Leave and low intelligence.
When you deny that the Eurozone is working towards full political union and deny that such a thing would affect the UK all I can see is subversion. You know these things are happening and choose to attempt to make out that they are not happening in the hope that someone other than you and I are reading these posts. It is only you and me and a couple of politicos reading this. You cant fool me and I doubt that you've fooled yourself.
You want to end UK independence and make us into a region of the EU. I believe that the loss of Britain will be a disaster for the world.
Original post by newpersonage
If the UK joins the Eurogroup political union in 2025 it will sign up to all the pacts and agreements that the Eurozone has signed since 1993. A political union should require a new referendum, but, given Labour, Tory, SNP and Lib-dems all support further union they will use the current referendum as authorisation.
There will be no going back from a Political Union in 9 yrs time.
There will be no going back from a Political Union in 9 yrs time.
So why do you think that Article 50 will no longer apply to EU/Eurogroup countries, giving them the right to withdraw?
Your contention that the UK will never be able to leave the EU is firstly based on speculating upon what the next few governments will do, which the Leave group seem hell-bent on people not doing lest we consider the prospect of Boris in charge with Gove at his side.
Secondly it's based on some fundamental principles of EU and customary international law, as well as the Treaty on European Union, which currently apply to all EU and Eurozone countries, being somehow negated, the mechanisms of which you have failed to explain let alone source. Just waving your hands and saying "it'll be a political union!" is hardly convincing.
When you deny that the Eurozone is working towards full political union and deny that such a thing would affect the UK all I can see is subversion. You know these things are happening and choose to attempt to make out that they are not happening in the hope that someone other than you and I are reading these posts. It is only you and me and a couple of politicos reading this. You cant fool me and I doubt that you've fooled yourself.
You want to end UK independence and make us into a region of the EU. I believe that the loss of Britain will be a disaster for the world.
You want to end UK independence and make us into a region of the EU. I believe that the loss of Britain will be a disaster for the world.
Even if the Eurozone aspires to greater political union, which I haven't actually denied, so what? Britain is not compelled to join the Euro. There is nothing to suggest that a Remain vote in this referendum will green light the UK joining the Euro. And even if we did, we could always leave if necessary. No matter the degree of political union, members of the EU have the right to withdraw.
Original post by offhegoes
...
Even if the Eurozone aspires to greater political union, which I haven't actually denied, so what? Britain is not compelled to join the Euro. There is nothing to suggest that a Remain vote in this referendum will green light the UK joining the Euro. And even if we did, we could always leave if necessary. No matter the degree of political union, members of the EU have the right to withdraw.
Even if the Eurozone aspires to greater political union, which I haven't actually denied, so what? Britain is not compelled to join the Euro. There is nothing to suggest that a Remain vote in this referendum will green light the UK joining the Euro. And even if we did, we could always leave if necessary. No matter the degree of political union, members of the EU have the right to withdraw.
You are deliberately avoiding discussing Eurozone unification. I provided all of the references for you to check that this is happening above.
You then refuse to engage with the obvious concern which is: what will happen in 9 years time when the Eurozone is in a political union? I pointed out that there would then need to be another referendum but that with a referendum just 9 yrs previously this will be denied and the UK government will merge us with the Eurogroup (or United States of Europe as it will then become). Obviously you can dispute this point, and it is a matter of judgement, but do you really think the government of the day in 2025 will hold yet another EU Referendum? They will, probably reasonably, say that no-one would have voted in the 2016 referendum without realising that the Eurozone would unite - it was in the opening paragraph of Cameron's "renegotiations"!
You then avoid the consequences of POLITICAL union. Political union means being governed by the EU Commission, Council and Parliament and not by Westminster. Once we are in a political union it will be the EU Commission that would either propose a further referendum for the UK or deny it. There will not be another referendum once we are in a political union.
The reason you are not addressing these concerns is that you want the UK to merge into the EU and cease being an independent country. I do not. I believe that in 20 or 50 years the EU will become a corporate governed danger to the diversity of the world.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by newpersonage
You are deliberately avoiding discussing Eurozone unification. I provided all of the references for you to check that this is happening above.
You then refuse to engage with the obvious concern which is what will happen in 9 years time when the Eurozone is in a political union? I pointed out that there would then need to be another referendum but that with a referendum just 9 yrs previously this will be denied and the UK government will merge us with the Eurogroup (or United States of Europe as it will then become).
You then avoid the consequences of POLITICAL union. Political union means being governed by the EU Commission, Council and Parliament and not by Westminster. Once we are in a political union it will be the EU Commission that would either propose a further referendum for the UK or deny it. There will not be another referendum once we are in a political union.
The reason you are not addressing these concerns is that you want the UK to merge into the EU and cease being an independent country. I do not. I believe that in 20 or 50 years the EU will become a corporate governed danger to the diversity of the world.
You then refuse to engage with the obvious concern which is what will happen in 9 years time when the Eurozone is in a political union? I pointed out that there would then need to be another referendum but that with a referendum just 9 yrs previously this will be denied and the UK government will merge us with the Eurogroup (or United States of Europe as it will then become).
You then avoid the consequences of POLITICAL union. Political union means being governed by the EU Commission, Council and Parliament and not by Westminster. Once we are in a political union it will be the EU Commission that would either propose a further referendum for the UK or deny it. There will not be another referendum once we are in a political union.
The reason you are not addressing these concerns is that you want the UK to merge into the EU and cease being an independent country. I do not. I believe that in 20 or 50 years the EU will become a corporate governed danger to the diversity of the world.
I'd love to see some sources that demonstrate that Article 50, giving members of the EU the right to withdraw, will no longer apply...
(I've read your links and did not see this mentioned or implied anywhere, unless I managed to miss it amongst the pages you provided. Perhaps specify exactly where it says members will no longer have the right to withdraw?)
Original post by CleverSquirrel
To be honest, leaving the EU makes more sense than staying in, we spend soo much for just staying the EU alone, there more benefits for leaving than staying in 
No - we'd still have to pay a huge fee to 'leave' if we did, so unless we decide to halt all trade with the EU and go for some bizarre isolationist approach (which would make no sense as British industry needs at least some access the single market), we'll end up spending almost as much on the EU without being able to have a say in what it does.
The 'leave' campaign love throwing around sensational figures and half-facts, which most experts have debunked.
Please remember there are currently no benefits to leaving as we don't know how the wider world will accept a non-EU Britain. It's all lovely to be optimistic and say we'll regain control of our sovereignty and more trade deals but there are all unlikely. If we plan on trading with the EU, we'll still be subject to EU laws and regulations, but have no say in them, so leaving really isn't that much of a victory. It gives the illusion of sovereignty.
The US, Japan and India have all warned against it, and the EU won't appreciate being left - so who on earth are you going to trade with? China's the EU's biggest trading partner - do you seriously think it would jeopardise that for a small island that's pissed off quite a few people over the past 200 years?
The people who are most vocal about supporting leaving the EU in the international community so far include Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Please let that sink in - are these really people we want Britain to associate itself to?
Are these people characters you want to be associated with?
The 'Brexit' campaign paints an exceedingly flattering picture to the UK, one of a country that could survive on its own terms in the world. That is no longer the case. It could become the case though, if we play along with the EU and use it.
Please don't be reckless with your vote - this isn't the time to make a resounding statement about how we don't like bureaucracy. If you have a problem with the EU - which most of us do - fix it from the inside, because once Britain leaves, it's all alone.
Have a lovely day - and please think carefully about your vote!
Original post by newpersonage
You are deliberately avoiding discussing Eurozone unification. I provided all of the references for you to check that this is happening above.
You then refuse to engage with the obvious concern which is what will happen in 9 years time when the Eurozone is in a political union? I pointed out that there would then need to be another referendum but that with a referendum just 9 yrs previously this will be denied and the UK government will merge us with the Eurogroup (or United States of Europe as it will then become).
You then avoid the consequences of POLITICAL union. Political union means being governed by the EU Commission, Council and Parliament and not by Westminster. Once we are in a political union it will be the EU Commission that would either propose a further referendum for the UK or deny it. There will not be another referendum once we are in a political union.
The reason you are not addressing these concerns is that you want the UK to merge into the EU and cease being an independent country. I do not. I believe that in 20 or 50 years the EU will become a corporate governed danger to the diversity of the world.
You then refuse to engage with the obvious concern which is what will happen in 9 years time when the Eurozone is in a political union? I pointed out that there would then need to be another referendum but that with a referendum just 9 yrs previously this will be denied and the UK government will merge us with the Eurogroup (or United States of Europe as it will then become).
You then avoid the consequences of POLITICAL union. Political union means being governed by the EU Commission, Council and Parliament and not by Westminster. Once we are in a political union it will be the EU Commission that would either propose a further referendum for the UK or deny it. There will not be another referendum once we are in a political union.
The reason you are not addressing these concerns is that you want the UK to merge into the EU and cease being an independent country. I do not. I believe that in 20 or 50 years the EU will become a corporate governed danger to the diversity of the world.
Besides the fact that you clearly haven't read article 50 if the Treaty on European Union, what makes you think only Britain will be against an 'ever closer union'?
Do you seriously think, say France, or Italy, or even Denmark's people will put up with being ruled by the EU? Can you seriously imagine the citizens of any of these countries becoming a 'region of the EU'?
There would be a revolution.
Implying that no one would protest means you are grossly underestimating the passion for sovereignty of these other countries, which is both insulting for other EU citizens and frankly disappointing.
IF there ever is an 'ever closer union' which Britain has already opted out of, it will be a long time from now, when the citizens of all the countries of Europe are behind the decision. They won't try it in the next 9 years, or 20 years, and it's even unlikely in the next 50. They might 'talk' about it, but the people who will be involved in this 'ever closer union' - if it even ever happens - will be vastly different from you or me. It is unlikely to happen in your lifetime, unless the status quo of the world shifts in a novel-worthy manner.
Original post by Hirondelle127
No - we'd still have to pay a huge fee to 'leave' if we did, so unless we decide to halt all trade with the EU and go for some bizarre isolationist approach (which would make no sense as British industry needs at least some access the single market), we'll end up spending almost as much on the EU without being able to have a say in what it does.
!
!
You do know you made LITERALLY no sense right there
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by offhegoes
I'd love to see some sources that demonstrate that Article 50, giving members of the EU the right to withdraw, will no longer apply...
(I've read your links and did not see this mentioned or implied anywhere, unless I managed to miss it amongst the pages you provided. Perhaps specify exactly where it says members will no longer have the right to withdraw?)
(I've read your links and did not see this mentioned or implied anywhere, unless I managed to miss it amongst the pages you provided. Perhaps specify exactly where it says members will no longer have the right to withdraw?)
Did you even bother to read my posts? I did not deny that Article 50 applies. I pointed out repeatedly that this referendum will be taken as authorisation for events only a decade away. The pro-EU UK MPs will use a Remain vote now as authorisation for joining the Eurogroup without a further Referendum.
REMAIN all the way yeahhhhh!
Original post by Jammy Duel
Sorry if I was unclear!
Britain will have to pay a fee when it leaves the EU, or if it leaves the EU. It will also have to pay a fee to the EU, much like Norway and Switzerland, to keep trading with the EU.
British industry will have to stick with the majority of EU regulations in order to trade with the EU. Even the leave campaign acknowledges that Britain will want to trade with the EU once it's out.
So unless Britain decides to isolate itself completely from the rest of the world, which is a bizarre thing to do, it will end up complying with EU regulations without having a say in them and paying a fee to keep up trade.
Original post by Hirondelle127
Besides the fact that you clearly haven't read article 50 if the Treaty on European Union, what makes you think only Britain will be against an 'ever closer union'?
Do you seriously think, say France, or Italy, or even Denmark's people will put up with being ruled by the EU? Can you seriously imagine the citizens of any of these countries becoming a 'region of the EU'?
There would be a revolution.
Do you seriously think, say France, or Italy, or even Denmark's people will put up with being ruled by the EU? Can you seriously imagine the citizens of any of these countries becoming a 'region of the EU'?
There would be a revolution.
Lets get this striaght. You are proposing to vote Remain because you believe that the EU will never become a political union? Are you really saying that you will vote for something on the basis that you believe that the European Union is not what it is and will never fulfil the intentions of the Treaties?
You do know that all Eurogroup countries have to submit draft National Budgets to the Eurogroup (and Commission) for approval? You know that banks in all Eurogroup countries have to submit their accounts to and are controlled by the ECB? The Eurogroup also meets before all EU Council Finance Meetings and presents a common policy.
Setting a National Budget, setting interest rates and having a common fiscal policy seems a long way down the road to political union to me yet you say:
Implying that no one would protest means you are grossly underestimating the passion for sovereignty of these other countries, which is both insulting for other EU citizens and frankly disappointing.
They have already given up economic sovereignty!
Stage 2 of Eurozone Union begins in 2017 and is due to be completed in 2025.
See
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1447860914350&uri=CELEX:52015DC0600
IF there ever is an 'ever closer union' which Britain has already opted out of, it will be a long time from now, when the citizens of all the countries of Europe are behind the decision. They won't try it in the next 9 years, or 20 years, and it's even unlikely in the next 50. They might 'talk' about it, but the people who will be involved in this 'ever closer union' - if it even ever happens - will be vastly different from you or me. It is unlikely to happen in your lifetime, unless the status quo of the world shifts in a novel-worthy manner.
You are just making this stuff up - check the link above. 26 EU countries are fully committed to "Ever Closer Union" and are implementing it as we write. The UK cannot opt out of the rest of the EU being united. Full union is scheduled for 2025. They have already achieved most of Stage 1 of Eurozone Union. Even Greece is staying in the Eurozone in hope of full political union and hence treatment as a region of the EU.
Are you yet another Remain supporter who hopes that some floating voter will read your comments and be deceived into a vision of the EU that has nothing to do with reality?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Hirondelle127
Sorry if I was unclear!
Britain will have to pay a fee when it leaves the EU, or if it leaves the EU. It will also have to pay a fee to the EU, much like Norway and Switzerland, to keep trading with the EU.
British industry will have to stick with the majority of EU regulations in order to trade with the EU. Even the leave campaign acknowledges that Britain will want to trade with the EU once it's out.
So unless Britain decides to isolate itself completely from the rest of the world, which is a bizarre thing to do, it will end up complying with EU regulations without having a say in them and paying a fee to keep up trade.
Britain will have to pay a fee when it leaves the EU, or if it leaves the EU. It will also have to pay a fee to the EU, much like Norway and Switzerland, to keep trading with the EU.
British industry will have to stick with the majority of EU regulations in order to trade with the EU. Even the leave campaign acknowledges that Britain will want to trade with the EU once it's out.
So unless Britain decides to isolate itself completely from the rest of the world, which is a bizarre thing to do, it will end up complying with EU regulations without having a say in them and paying a fee to keep up trade.
You mean like we do with ALL our non EU trade, I.e. the majority? Not having a say in the regulations is not a bad thing
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Original post by Student1408
REMAIN all the way yeahhhhh!
Is that because you hope to deprive future generations of independence? If you look at some of the other posts on this thread they refer to the 5 Presidents report and full union for the Eurozone by 2025 - see
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1447860914350&uri=CELEX:52015DC0600
The UK will have a big problem with 90% of the EU in a single bloc and, since 2014, an EU Council based on majority voting. The UK government will use this referendum as approval for joining the Eurogroup.
This referendum is about the future. In 30 years time, after full union based on this referendum, the EU may swing violently to the Right. The UK does not swing left and right like Greece, Italy or Poland etc. After full union Westminster will be superseded by the EU Parliament. Will the EU Parliament grant the UK another referendum?
Last October, I was on a flight home from an exhausting, but amazing Erasmus trip. The airport I was supposed to land in is a bit far from my hometown, where I actually needed to get to, but the co-ordinators had taken this into account and made a schedule regarding transport to the hometown - plus, I wasn't the only one on the plane actually headed to another destination than the airport's city. The flight was going well, but near the destination, the pilot announces that, due to bad weather and visibility, the plane would land at the nearest airport - which was actually the one in my hometown. We land there, and I'm happy things worked out this way and excited to get home and enjoy my extra time; but half the plane's passengers are protesting, demanding they turn back to the original destination. The crew decides to wait and seee if the weather gets any better - and we keep on waiting for more than an hour, and me and the others from Erasmus realize that by now we'd have no way to stick to the original route home if we went back to that airport - we'd have to spent at least another night tin that city, and we were short on money. So we sat there, powerlessly and anxiously waiting even more.
This little anecdote of mine came to mind recently and I realized: there is no better metaphor for what I'm feeling right now regarding the referendum, as a prospective EU student without huge financial means or other options. Pretty sure no one cares, but I felt like I needed to say it.
This little anecdote of mine came to mind recently and I realized: there is no better metaphor for what I'm feeling right now regarding the referendum, as a prospective EU student without huge financial means or other options. Pretty sure no one cares, but I felt like I needed to say it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by newpersonage
This referendum is about the future. In 30 years time, after full union based on this referendum, the EU may swing violently to the Right. The UK does not swing left and right like Greece, Italy or Poland etc. After full union Westminster will be superseded by the EU Parliament. Will the EU Parliament grant the UK another referendum?
I've said it before, but if in 30 years the EU does swing to the far-right the UK will have big problems whether it's in the EU or not.
At least by being in, alongside other moderating countries, we can help mitigate that happening.
Original post by jneill
I've said it before, but if in 30 years the EU does swing to the far-right the UK will have big problems whether it's in the EU or not.
At least by being in, alongside other moderating countries, we can help mitigate that happening.
At least by being in, alongside other moderating countries, we can help mitigate that happening.
Outside, with the USA, Canada etc. on our side we would be able to sit it out until the EU moderated. Inside we would have, say, 7% of the vote, given that some UK MEPs would be good Europeans. (The EU would have 93% of the say over what happens in the UK).
I raised the example of the far right to illustrate the point that this referendum is for life and for future generations. Inside the EU we will be exposed to the cold winds of any EU Zeitgeist and will share a border with Russia and the Middle East, exposing us to serious dangers given that the Germans will be dominating the EU.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by maracatinca
Last October, I was on a flight home from an exhausting, but amazing Erasmus trip. ...
This little anecdote of mine came to mind recently and I realized: there is no better metaphor for what I'm feeling right now regarding the referendum, as a prospective EU student without huge financial means or other options. Pretty sure no one cares, but I felt like I needed to say it.
This little anecdote of mine came to mind recently and I realized: there is no better metaphor for what I'm feeling right now regarding the referendum, as a prospective EU student without huge financial means or other options. Pretty sure no one cares, but I felt like I needed to say it.
Apart from the fact that the UK can remain in Erasmus even if it leaves the EU, you are making the point that right now you feel the EU benefits you. This referendum should not be about right now and yourself. It is about decades and even centuries to come in a rapidly changing EU.
When the EU swings to the far right in a couple of decades remember that you voted for that future.
Original post by newpersonage
Outside, with the USA, Canada etc. on our side we would be able to sit it out until the EU moderated. Inside we would have, say, 7% of the vote, given that some UK MEPs would be good Europeans. (The EU would have 93% of the say over what happens in the UK).
I raised the example of the far right to illustrate the point that this referendum is for life and for future generations. Inside the EU we will be exposed to the cold winds of any EU Zeitgeist and will share a border with Russia and the Middle East, exposing us to serious dangers given that the Germans will be dominating the EU.
I raised the example of the far right to illustrate the point that this referendum is for life and for future generations. Inside the EU we will be exposed to the cold winds of any EU Zeitgeist and will share a border with Russia and the Middle East, exposing us to serious dangers given that the Germans will be dominating the EU.
"sit it out"
marvellous.
Original post by Jammy Duel
You mean like we do with ALL our non EU trade, I.e. the majority? Not having a say in the regulations is not a bad thing
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Yeah, exactly. Except that a lot of the leave side moan about how the EU infringes on our rights to do what we want with British industry. Truth is, we will have to conform to those regulations if we want to keep trading with the EU anyway, might as well have a say in them.
If you don't mind not having a say, then that particular argument doesn't matter either way to you, which is fine too.
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