Is it acceptable for us to continue funding/supporting terrorist groups in Syria?
Poll
Should our government be supporting terrorists in Syria?
This thread will be specifically used to discuss the groups Jabhat Al Nusra, Jaysh al Islam, Ahrar Asham and a few other groups. It is not used to discuss anything other than what the title states. The groups are specifically the ones the UK supports - or their best and close allies. Discussion of any other group - or a group not associated or affiliated with them will be reported as off-topic.
For those who don't know why i call these terrorist groups, i'd like you to read the following, and then vote in the POLL.
Ahrar-as-Sham:
Strength: 10-20,000 (the economist) Reference will povided on request.
It is considered one of the three most powerful rebel groups fighting in Syria - i will update it when i can: "
In February 2014, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence called Ahrar al-Sham one of the three most effective rebel groups in Syria."
1.Ahrar Asham are probably considered one of the closest allies to jabhat al nusra, and have very, very strong links to Alqaeda.
2. "It routinely cooperates with al-Nusra and, until relations soured in 2013, also worked with ISIS. In February 2014, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence called Ahrar al-Sham one of the three most effective rebel groups in Syria."
Leadership: "Abu Khalid al-Suri, also known as Abu Omeir al-Shami (Unknown to February 23, 2014): Suri was a co-founder of Ahrar al-Sham and acted as Ayman al-Zawahiri’s representative in Syria,"
"Suri's close ties with Al Qaeda became clear after his death, when AQ commander Ayman al-Zawahiripublished a eulogy for the fallen Ahrar al-Sham leader and AQ posted a video documenting his participation in Al Farouq training camp in Afghanistan, including photos of him with Osama bin Laden and Zawahir"
"Ahrar al-Sham was founded by members of Al Qaeda and maintains links to AQ’s core leadership.
[42]While neither group formally claims a partnership, senior AQ officials, including Ayman al-Zawahiri, openly mourned Ahrar al-Sham leader Abu Khalid al-Suri when he died.
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappin...roups/view/523
Ahrar Asham, backed by our ally, Qatar, the owners of secterian propaganda news channel - AL JAZEERA.
For those who don't know why i call these terrorist groups, i'd like you to read the following, and then vote in the POLL.
Ahrar-as-Sham:
Strength: 10-20,000 (the economist) Reference will povided on request.
It is considered one of the three most powerful rebel groups fighting in Syria - i will update it when i can: "
In February 2014, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence called Ahrar al-Sham one of the three most effective rebel groups in Syria."
1.Ahrar Asham are probably considered one of the closest allies to jabhat al nusra, and have very, very strong links to Alqaeda.
2. "It routinely cooperates with al-Nusra and, until relations soured in 2013, also worked with ISIS. In February 2014, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence called Ahrar al-Sham one of the three most effective rebel groups in Syria."
Leadership: "Abu Khalid al-Suri, also known as Abu Omeir al-Shami (Unknown to February 23, 2014): Suri was a co-founder of Ahrar al-Sham and acted as Ayman al-Zawahiri’s representative in Syria,"
"Suri's close ties with Al Qaeda became clear after his death, when AQ commander Ayman al-Zawahiripublished a eulogy for the fallen Ahrar al-Sham leader and AQ posted a video documenting his participation in Al Farouq training camp in Afghanistan, including photos of him with Osama bin Laden and Zawahir"
"Ahrar al-Sham was founded by members of Al Qaeda and maintains links to AQ’s core leadership.
[42]While neither group formally claims a partnership, senior AQ officials, including Ayman al-Zawahiri, openly mourned Ahrar al-Sham leader Abu Khalid al-Suri when he died.
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappin...roups/view/523
Ahrar Asham, backed by our ally, Qatar, the owners of secterian propaganda news channel - AL JAZEERA.
(edited 7 years ago)
Jaysh Al Islam
1. Considered a very powerful group in and around damuscus.
2. Their ex-leader who died a week or so ago, was Zahran Alloush, a man who openly praised Bin Laden, in addition to calling Jabhat Al Nusra their brothers, whom they praise and have close ties with.
3. Highly secterian language, called for the slaughter of those from other groups in the most vile and menacing language.
4. Put alawite women in cages and paraded them as human shields.
1. Here is a video of him, with subtitles, where he explicitly praises Sheikh Osama Bin Laden:
Watch 2:15 onwards!
[video="youtube;Lcvz-sgyuu0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcvz-sgyuu0[/video]
"We saw sheikh Usama Bin Laden - may Allah have mercy on him "
2. Here is a video of him pledging his alliance with Jabhat al Nusra, the Al-Qaeda affiliate in syria designated a terrorist group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zajo2GeKyV4
3. And here is a video of him, calling for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of alawites, and shia muslims - turning the whole syria issue into a secterian one (when a large contingent of Assads army are SUNNI'S, his cabinet is predominantly sunni, and his wife is also a sunni!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPLUhSy4vZ4
1. Considered a very powerful group in and around damuscus.
2. Their ex-leader who died a week or so ago, was Zahran Alloush, a man who openly praised Bin Laden, in addition to calling Jabhat Al Nusra their brothers, whom they praise and have close ties with.
3. Highly secterian language, called for the slaughter of those from other groups in the most vile and menacing language.
4. Put alawite women in cages and paraded them as human shields.
1. Here is a video of him, with subtitles, where he explicitly praises Sheikh Osama Bin Laden:
Watch 2:15 onwards!
[video="youtube;Lcvz-sgyuu0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcvz-sgyuu0[/video]
"We saw sheikh Usama Bin Laden - may Allah have mercy on him "
2. Here is a video of him pledging his alliance with Jabhat al Nusra, the Al-Qaeda affiliate in syria designated a terrorist group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zajo2GeKyV4
3. And here is a video of him, calling for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of alawites, and shia muslims - turning the whole syria issue into a secterian one (when a large contingent of Assads army are SUNNI'S, his cabinet is predominantly sunni, and his wife is also a sunni!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPLUhSy4vZ4
(edited 7 years ago)
By all means report as off topic but I think this is probably one of the worst threads I have ever come across. What exactly do you want here? You give a poll asking for views on religious rebel groups in Syria which even those of us quite well informed have never heard of. You give us select information about them and ask for us to say ina poll which is worse Assad or these groups. You then state time and time again how any deviation from your extremely narrow topic won't be tolerated.
If you want to tell people your views just do so.
If you want to tell people your views just do so.
For me the question is fundamentally, what do the people of Syria want? In the late 70's and early 80's, the Muslim brotherhood led uprisings to establish a Sunni state of some sort. It seems there has for a long time been this support among Sunni Muslims in Syria for a Sunni state of some sort. Whether we support these groups or not, they will have the support of sections of the Sunni Muslim population. The ideology and the desire for a Sunni state exists and will continue to exist, regardless of whether we attack or support these groups. So I don't think we can ever really win the fight against this ideology.
Original post by The Epicurean
For me the question is fundamentally, what do the people of Syria want? In the late 70's and early 80's, the Muslim brotherhood led uprisings to establish a Sunni state of some sort. It seems there has for a long time been this support among Sunni Muslims in Syria for a Sunni state of some sort. Whether we support these groups or not, they will have the support of sections of the Sunni Muslim population. The ideology and the desire for a Sunni state exists and will continue to exist, regardless of whether we attack or support these groups. So I don't think we can ever really win the fight against this ideology.
The desire for a Sunni state exists because the vast majority of people in Syria are Sunni.
The entire revolution is about getting rid of a dictator who was imposed on the Syrian people so that they can rule for themselves. Most of the groups now are fighting for the Sharia, and I doubt they'll plan to stop anytime soon.
Original post by The Epicurean
For me the question is fundamentally, what do the people of Syria want? In the late 70's and early 80's, the Muslim brotherhood led uprisings to establish a Sunni state of some sort. It seems there has for a long time been this support among Sunni Muslims in Syria for a Sunni state of some sort. Whether we support these groups or not, they will have the support of sections of the Sunni Muslim population. The ideology and the desire for a Sunni state exists and will continue to exist, regardless of whether we attack or support these groups. So I don't think we can ever really win the fight against this ideology.
Original post by AlifunArnab
The desire for a Sunni state exists because the vast majority of people in Syria are Sunni.
The entire revolution is about getting rid of a dictator who was imposed on the Syrian people so that they can rule for themselves. Most of the groups now are fighting for the Sharia, and I doubt they'll plan to stop anytime soon.
The entire revolution is about getting rid of a dictator who was imposed on the Syrian people so that they can rule for themselves. Most of the groups now are fighting for the Sharia, and I doubt they'll plan to stop anytime soon.
Epicurean, i just want to make note here that AlifunArnab considers shia scholars to be apostates , and shia's to be committers of shirk, and heretics.
He is on record for voicing support and praying for Ahrar Asham, a group founded by members of alqaeda, secterian, and closely allied with the official alqaeda affiliate, jabhat al nusra. He is also on record for acknowledging these groups do not seek democracy, and i feel neither does he.
If one looked at the syria before the conflict, looked at the culture and people, they would recognize that the average sunni there would never want a syria ruled by Alqaeda founded or associated groups.
The best option is to rid syria of terrorist groups, and allow moderate parties to form, and hold internationally monitored elections so that the syrian people - not these takfiri millitant foreign backed groups- can have their say.
It's laughable to even think many of these foreign groups, many having non-syrian fighters, many founded by alqaeda or working closely with them, many who do not even seek inclusive democracy[will never happen with the number of splinter groups and radical ideology] , many backed by gulf dictatorships who have no democracy in their own countries, are somehow seeking a fairer and better syria.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Tawheed
He is on record for voicing support and praying for Ahrar Asham
He is on record for voicing support and praying for Ahrar Asham
They're a mainstream opposition group.
Original post by Tawheed
The best option is to rid syria of terrorist groups, and allow moderate parties to form, and hold internationally monitored elections so that the syrian people - not these takfiri millitant foreign backed groups- can have their say.
The best option is to rid syria of terrorist groups, and allow moderate parties to form, and hold internationally monitored elections so that the syrian people - not these takfiri millitant foreign backed groups- can have their say.
You'd have to get rid of Hezbollah and the various Shia militias.
Original post by Tawheed
It's laughable to even think many of these foreign groups, many having non-syrian fighters, many founded by alqaeda or working closely with them, many who do not even seek inclusive democracy[will never happen with the number of splinter groups and radical ideology] , many backed by gulf dictatorships who have no democracy in their own countries, are somehow seeking a fairer and better syria.
It's laughable to even think many of these foreign groups, many having non-syrian fighters, many founded by alqaeda or working closely with them, many who do not even seek inclusive democracy[will never happen with the number of splinter groups and radical ideology] , many backed by gulf dictatorships who have no democracy in their own countries, are somehow seeking a fairer and better syria.
Which foreign groups? Most groups are primarily Syrian. You have one or two groups with foreign fighters but the vast majority of the groups are Syrian.
How about the Shia militias? You have whole divisions of foreign fighters defending Bashar.
The fatemeyon afghans which number in the thousands, or the Lebanese Hezbollah fighters, or how about the Iraqi Shia fighters?
Original post by AlifunArnab
Ahrar Asham, founded by members of Alqaeda, working hand in hand with Jabhat al Nusra, the official Alqaeda, affiliate, are a 'mainstream' opposition group ?
In a country which was fairly secular, i hardly believe the population as a whole want Alqaeda taking over.
Original post by Tawheed
Ahrar Asham, founded by members of Alqaeda, working hand in hand with Jabhat al Nusra, the official Alqaeda, affiliate, are a 'mainstream' opposition group ?
In a country which was fairly secular, i hardly believe the population as a whole want Alqaeda taking over.
In a country which was fairly secular, i hardly believe the population as a whole want Alqaeda taking over.
Founded by members of AQ?
That's not true.
Al Suri had links to AQ, but the two remaining founders had nothing to do with AQ. In fact, Ahrah al Sham have explicitly said they're not AQ, nor do they share the same methodology.
Didn't Alloush die back in December or something? A lot longer than a week ago.
Original post by AlifunArnab
Founded by members of AQ?
That's not true.
Al Suri had links to AQ, but the two remaining founders had nothing to do with AQ. In fact, Ahrah al Sham have explicitly said they're not AQ, nor do they share the same methodology.
That's not true.
Al Suri had links to AQ, but the two remaining founders had nothing to do with AQ. In fact, Ahrah al Sham have explicitly said they're not AQ, nor do they share the same methodology.
Yes, due to Qatar pressuring them, you have found rhetoric also changing [all in a bid to try making them more palatable to western governments]. Note, i did not say they share the exact methodology of Alqaeda, but if they were founded by individual(s) who worked closely and were practically part of Alqaeda, and a group that considers alqaeda - official- alqaeda affiliates as their brothers and work hand in hand, tell me if that is not worthy of condemnation? You have admitted and affirmed that Al Suri had links to Alqaeda, and was one of the founders of Ahrar Asham. Do you not feel that is a damning inditement ?
A word about Suri [From stanford]: "AQ commander Ayman al-Zawahiri published a eulogy for the fallen Ahrar al-Sham leader and AQ posted a video documenting his participation in Al Farouq training camp in Afghanistan, including photos of him with Osama bin Laden and Zawahir
They may not officially assume the name of Alqaeda (perhaps to make them more palatable), but one of their key founders took photo's with Osama Bin Laden, trained with Alqaeda, and had very close ties with Al Qaeda. And not only that, but arhar asham (al-qaed) have closely worked with jabhat al nusra, fought with them, and consider them as their brothers. Even if you do not assume the title of alqaeda, it is a damning reality.
Original post by AlifunArnab
The desire for a Sunni state exists because the vast majority of people in Syria are Sunni.
Indeed, and that is why I personally think the only way forward would be to redraw Syria as it is quite clear that there is no single factor that all groups in Syria can unite upon. I can't imagine for example the Christian, Shia or Druze populations signing up to live in a Sunni state.
The entire revolution is about getting rid of a dictator who was imposed on the Syrian people so that they can rule for themselves. Most of the groups now are fighting for the Sharia, and I doubt they'll plan to stop anytime soon.
I feel the origins of this conflict go back quite a lot further. Assad's father was rather brutal at putting down the Muslim Brotherhood in the 80's (killing many innocent Sunni Muslims in the process), so there is among many Sunni individuals in Syria a disliking towards the Assad family. And I agree that these groups currently involved wont stop anytime soon. This is why I feel some diplomacy is needed and that the only way forward might possibly be to go to the drawing board and possibly offer the possibility of a Sunni state to at least bring about some stability and bring an end to this war. Although that wouldn't be a very popular path to take. But for me at least stability >>> war.
Original post by Tawheed
Epicurean, i just want to make note here that AlifunArnab considers shia scholars to be apostates , and shia's to be committers of shirk, and heretics
He is on record for voicing support and praying for Ahrar Asham, a group founded by members of alqaeda, secterian, and closely allied with the official alqaeda affiliate, jabhat al nusra. He is also on record for acknowledging these groups do not seek democracy, and i feel neither does he.
He is on record for voicing support and praying for Ahrar Asham, a group founded by members of alqaeda, secterian, and closely allied with the official alqaeda affiliate, jabhat al nusra. He is also on record for acknowledging these groups do not seek democracy, and i feel neither does he.
Whether he has said this or not, I don't want to get to caught up in the arguments on this, so I will withhold making any comments.
If one looked at the syria before the conflict, looked at the culture and people, they would recognize that the average sunni there would never want a syria ruled by Alqaeda founded or associated groups.
Looking at the huge support the Muslim Brotherhood gained in the past, it shows that there has been a long desire for a more Islamic state.
The best option is to rid syria of terrorist groups, and allow moderate parties to form, and hold internationally monitored elections so that the syrian people - not these takfiri millitant foreign backed groups- can have their say.
From my experience with many members on the TSR I-Soc, I have absolutely no faith or hope in any moderate Islamic group appearing any time soon with mass support. And what 'moderate' even entails is something I doubt we would agree on. So I'm not convinced that any better alternative can be offered. At the moment, I see stability and cessation of the civil war as my primary goal/hope. If that means the creation of Saudi Arabia 2.0, then so be it. However, this for me would entail also the creation of other states within Syria which would cater towards other groups such as the Shia, Kurds, Druze etc...
It's laughable to even think many of these foreign groups, many having non-syrian fighters, many founded by alqaeda or working closely with them, many who do not even seek inclusive democracy[will never happen with the number of splinter groups and radical ideology] , many backed by gulf dictatorships who have no democracy in their own countries, are somehow seeking a fairer and better syria.
I don't agree with their desired state, but if they have a state of their own, they can keep themselves occupied with bringing about their desired state, and more importantly, those who don't want such a state, can go about establishing their own separate independent states, for example the Kurds.
(edited 7 years ago)
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