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Either way, I think we can conclude the tatbir topic that some shia allow it while other don't. And that it might be a dying ritual.

Reply 41

Al-farhan

Original post by Tawheed

Quote number one: Al-Anwar Al-Nu'umaniyah by sayyid ni'imatallah al-jazai'iri

What you translate it as / copy from a source it saying " We share no god with them, we share no prophet with them and we share no imam with them (abubakar). Because they say their god is the one whose prophet mohamed left behind abubakar as a successor. As such we do not believe in that god, nor do we believe in that prophet. That god is not our god and that prophet is not our prophet...
"...And on the other side this shows (since we don't believe in the same god? is that the justification for what follows?) that it is permissible to curse all the opposers, nay it shows the compulsory requirement to curse them.
therefore it is clear that we must absolve ourselves from any connection with them and doing so is one of the strongest pillars of iman.."

My response:

I don't have the arabic here as it was not provided, nor can i place these words in context by reading the passages as a whole which are some severe detriments here. Nor do i believe the author you quoted ranks particularly highly relative to our present and past Ulema. However, there is absolutely no doubt as per the Ijma of the shia Ulema that Sunni muslims:

1. Share the same God as us.
2. Share the same Prophet as us.
3. Same untouched, unchanged Holy book.
Salaam.
I can provide the arabic text bro. But it is very hard to find context for this.
I tried to find the context for it but not possible (at least to me).
But before we get into that let us discuss the book and its author who you are very quick in dismissing, he is Seyyed Nematollah Jazayeri was a well established shia scholar whose teachers included Al-Hurr al-Aamili and Al-Majlisii and he himself is a descendant of imam Musa Al-Kadim.
So not just some rabble from the streets.
You can read more about him here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyyed_Nematollah_Jazayeri

Now for the Arabic source:

Spoiler

Al-Jazairi is doing comparative look at different religions and sects and in particular asharis and their ''ilk'' and how they are closer to christians and jews in their understanding of God. And that indeed they and their ''likes'' will enter hell with their brethren for eternity. Then he goes on to say what I mentioned earlier:

Spoiler

In the second page the author goes on to continue his message of 12ers being the true muslims, and everyone else is destined to drown since imamah is the only salvation as was the ark of noah, whoever was on it gained salvation and whoever was not aboard drowned.
And many other points that everyone speaking arabic can see and read on.

So please find the context for me here.

Reply 42

Al-farhan

Hope you haven't forgotten our discussions bro.

Reply 43

Tawheed

Original post by Al-farhan

Hope you haven't forgotten our discussions bro.

I haven't forgotten dear brother i, i'll come to them soon inshAllah.

Reply 44

Al-farhan

Original post by Tawheed

It's more 85% are sunni's.

And also, it is an appeal to popularity.

Can we suppose in the following hadiths then that the infallible have used a fallacy and as such are no longer fallible?

Hadith:
من خلع جماعة المسلمين قدر شبر خلع ربقة الإيمان من عنقه
Whomsoever leaves the jama'ah ( vast majority) of muslims has removed his imaan
source(s):

Spoiler

Edit: after further looking into this hadith sometimes it is attributed to the prophet and at other times attributed to an imam, the exact same hadith :confused:

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 45

Boondock Saint

Do some Shias consider it obligatory to pray on a turbah (small piece of clay)?

Reply 46

username945663

Bumping some questions which remain unanswered for some reason.

Original post by Scythia

Questions (you've repeatedly avoided answering this).

1) Can people get into Jannah without Allah's mercy? Yes/no.

2) Now as you ask Allah to remove mercy from Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), you are actually asking Allah to send them to hell? Yes/no.

I prefer quick yes/no responses Tawheed as they are indeed very straight forward questions :h:

Thanks in advance Tawheed :smile:

Original post by Tawheed

I haven't forgotten dear brother i, i'll come to them soon inshAllah.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 47

Tawheed

Original post by IdeasForLife

Bumping some questions which remain unanswered for some reason.

Thanks in advance Tawheed :smile:

You are showing a polite face when using your original account, but you have called me a rafidhi, abused me, and insulted me on your other temporary accounts, refused to reply to any of my salams, etc.

I am not going to play any part in your promoting your conversion to a very secterian, very hateful muslim.

However, i have forgiven you and prayed for Allah to forgive you on account of what you have done to me personally.

Reply 48

Tawheed

Original post by Al-farhan

Spoiler

Edit: after further looking into this hadith sometimes it is attributed to the prophet and at other times attributed to an imam, the exact same hadith :confused:

Could you give me the chains for the ahadith you have mentioned ?

I'm currently looking into the reference you gave:

أُصول الكافي 1 : 405 كتاب الحجّة ، باب ما أمر النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله)

I can only find the following two ahadith under this chapter:

ـ عدة منأصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن فضال ، عن أبي جميلة ، عن محمد الحلبي ، عنأبي عبد الله عليه*السلام قال من فارق جماعة المسلمين قيد شبر فقد خلع ربقة الإسلاممن عنقه.

Grading: Dh'aif. [Mirat al uluq]

And:

وبهذا الإسناد، عن أبي عبد الله عليه*السلام قال من فارق جماعة المسلمين ونكث صفقة الإمام جاء إلى اللهعز وجل أجذم.

Grading: Dh'aif [Mirat al Uluq]

I'll look into the intepretation nonetheless[i'll need to refer to a few others here, so give me time] , but i'd like to know the chain bywhich you got the hadith you had quoted for the version you showed?

With regards to The imams of Ahlulbayt a.s quoting something, and the prophet quoting something, and the same quote being found for both, this is exactly what shia Islam is about.

The Imams of Ahlulbayt a.s are the presevers of the Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w. When they speak a fiqh issue, or speak on an Aqaed issue, it is none other than what Rasullulah s.a.w taught, preached, allowed, accepted.

From Rijal Al Kashi:

Abu Ali Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Riayah al-Zuhri al-Tahhan said: narrated to us Muhammad b. Abdallah b. Ghalib who said: narrated to me Muhammad b. al-Walid from Yunus b. Yaqub from Abdalla b. Khafaqa who said: Aban b. Taghlib said to me: I passed by a group who blamed me because of my narrating from Ja’far (al-Sadiq) عليه السلام, so I said: you blame me for narrating from a man whom I have never asked about anything except that he said about it - the messenger of Allah said"

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 49

Tawheed

Original post by Boondock Saint

Do some Shias consider it obligatory to pray on a turbah (small piece of clay)?

No, shia muslims do not consider it Obligatory to pray on a small piece of clay.

The ruling is a Fiqh i.e jurisprudential isse.

According to Ayatullah Sistani(ha): " Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tarwill have preference over other non-allowable things."

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/

Reply 50

username2637499

What's the difference between Shias and Sunnis?
Why are there divisions?

Reply 51

Tawheed

Original post by AppleB

What's the difference between Shias and Sunnis?
Why are there divisions?

Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims both believe in one God, and both believe that the Quran is the unchanged word of God, and both believe that tMuhammed s.a.w is the Messenger of God, and both also affirm in the need to follow his Sunnah (example).

Divisions come in terms of where to obtain this Sunnah. Shia's affirm that the Prophet s.a.w left behind the Quran and Ahlulbayt, who preserved his true tradition.

The following hadith is accepted by both shia's and sunni's

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:
Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."•

One difference i believe that exists between shia's and sunni's is in the concept of Allah (azwj).

Sunni muslims believe [and their beliefs are varied on this issue, to be fair, so not all affirm this], that Allah is nothing like his creation, but he has hands, feet, a shin, but these attributes are nothing like ours, and we leave the meaning to Allah azwj. The belief is also that those who succeeded on the day of judgement will be able to see God directly with their own two eyes.

Shia muslims believe that God, is one in his absolute oneness, and is not composed of constituent parts, even if one affirms these parts are not like ours. We affirm that God thus, is not divisible by essence. Shia muslims believe that no, God can never be directly witnessed in vision. In order to see God, he would need to have a contingent form, or confine, and one would thus, comprehend him. We affirm that God is beyond any vision, and above all comprehension, in this life, as well as the next.

Due to differences in where one obtains the Sunnah, we have had divergent books of ahadith. Sunni brothers/sisters Bukhari, muslim etc, and shia muslims Al Kafi, man ya radul Faqih etc.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 52

MrFudgeTheGuy

Original post by Tawheed

In the name of Allah , the beneficent, the merciful.

All praise belongs to Allah. There is none worthy or worship save Allah. To him is our final return, and our ultimate goal.

This thread has been created by myself, a shia muslim, in order to create an FAQ post in the first few posts - to allow people to refer to it, as many questions are asked repeatedly, and it is time consuming having to answer the same questions - which is why i will not be using the other thread. Furthermore, my intention of creating this thread, other than clarifying misconceptions , is to ward of sectarianism by creating an understanding , and doing away with forces who wish to create enmity between muslims.

In order to give people a very brief, and basic introduction to Shia Islam [so the muslim and non-muslim can appreciate]:

1. Shia muslims believe in One God. They believe Almighty God is not composed of constituent parts, such as the shin, hands, feet, [ even if one claims they are nothing like ours]. We affirm God almighty is one, in his absolute oneness, not numerically one, but one in the sense one can not divide his essence into constituent parts like the scenario given. We believe God almighty will never be seen in this life, or the next. We believe there is nothing 'to see' - God does not have a form, a confine, a contingent existence by which one can comprehend him , see him, and visualize him. We believe on the day of judgement, we will see God through the inward intuition of the heart - in this, we will see true faith, true monotheism, the reality of right. Note, this is in no way comprehending God.

[video="youtube;gKiogWvcfEQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKiogWvcfEQ[/video]

2. Shia muslims believe that Muhammed s.a.w, the greatest creation, the greatest man to walk this earth, was the last and final prophet of God, the seal. We believe his Sunnah, and his example is what we absolutely strive to follow. We believe Rasullah s.a.w clearly stated, in both sunni and shia books, that in order to follow his Sunnah, one must hold onto the Quran AND the Ahlulbayt:

3. Shia muslims believe that the Quran is the last and final revelation of God. The Quran we have in content is the preserved Quran with no alteration in its verses and the Quran has not undergone corruption. Any ahadith in shia and sunni works which give that impression are often weak, or wrongly interpreted. And this is the Ijma of shia scholars.

4. Shia muslims respect many companions of Muhammed s.a.w. However, we view the companions of Muhammed s.a.w in the same way and light as the Quran views them. There are those loyal, those of varying levels of belief, those who do not possess true belief in their hearts, as some examples. We do not regard the sahaba in the view that they were all good and righteous. Rather, we look at them as any large body and group of human beings. Similar to all the other Prophets of God, From Jesus a.s to Moses a.s, in any large body or group of people, there are those who are loyal, those who have faith in varying levels, those who change, those who turn back, those who are not sincere.

We revere the matyrs of the Holy Wars, such as the matyr's of Badr r.a, among the others. We revere many notable companions - four of whom are in the top ten narrators of sunni hadith books. They are, Jabir ibn Abdullah r.a, Abu said al khudri r.a, Ibn Abbas r.a, Abdullah ibn Mas'ud r.a. vWe revere many more notable companions.

What do Shias think about Abu Bakr and Umar?

Reply 53

Tawheed

Original post by AppleB

What's the difference between Shias and Sunnis?
Why are there divisions?

Divisions of late, and secterianism has been promoted by people who are of a very intolerant form of Islam, who class anyone who disagree's with their paticular views deviants, Kuffars, etc.

You'll find some of these groups not just considering shia's to be apostates and only saved by being laymen, but also class many large bodies of sunni's as deviants.

Reply 54

username2637499

Original post by Tawheed

Thanks for your reply

So if you believe in the same sunnah what's the problem?
Is it the form of Allah only?

Reply 55

Tawheed

Original post by MrFudgeTheGuy

What do Shias think about Abu Bakr and Umar?

We believe that they went against the Command of the Holy Prophet s.a.w in opposing and taking away the God-given right of Ali ibn Abi Talib a/s, to lead the Muslim Ummah after the death of Muhammed s.a.w We believe that these two individuals also partook in acts which caused hurt, and oppression of the Ahlulbayt a.s.

One example is that of Fatima, the daughter of Muhammed s.a.w:

It is written in Saheeh Al Bukhari: "
Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Messenger"
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/57/2

Having said that, this is our historical point of view, and our opinion. In shia Islam, it is forbidden to hurl abuse or insults at these two individuals, in light of their very high prominence among our brothers in the ahlus-sunnah. What shia muslims do - or should be doing- is merely having an academic discussion on why we disagree with and do not revere these individuals or class them at the same level of our brothers in the ahlus-sunnah, however, we refrain from abuse.

Ayatullah Sistani (ha) has started that insulting these symbols of the ahlus-sunnah by hurling abuse at them, is forbidden.

Here is a Fatwah by Ayatullah Khamanei (ha):
Ayatollah Khamenei’s fatwa: Insulting the Mother of the Faithful Aisha is prohibited
From his english website: http://english.khamenei.ir/news/3905/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-fatwa-Insulting-the-Mother-of-the-Faithful
The Leader of the Islamic Revolution said, in response to a question on religious matters, “Insulting figures and symbols celebrated by Sunni brethren, including the wife of the Prophet of Islam [Aisha] is prohibited. This includes the wives of all prophets, particularly the master of all prophets Muhammad (May God’s greetings be upon him and his household).

Reply 56

Tawheed

Original post by AppleB

Thanks for your reply

So if you believe in the same sunnah what's the problem?
Is it the form of Allah only?

No problem :smile:

As i stated before, we have divergent books of hadith. In these books of hadith are narrators, and chains of narrators. For example, if i narrated from you, who narrated from x, from y , from z, who heard the Messenger of Allah, Muhammed s.a.w say something.

So you see, due to divergent opinions on the most reliable routes, the trustworthy narrators, and the best sources to obtain the truest words of Muhammed s.a.w and his habits, commands, etc, shia's and sunni's have each made judgements on narrators, individuals, and who they consider to be reliable.

Therefore, while there is much in common between shia's and sunni's with regards to the Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w, there are also differences, stemming from each party deeming different narrators/sources/books reliable for obtaining the Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w

Salafi-type groups however, deem shia muslims to be deviants, and if they are not layman, to be kaffirs and apostates[some deem all shia scholars as kuffars. There are some users on this forum who have refused to reply to my greetings of salam (peace), have called me a 'rafidhi' (abusive word for shia's when said by a non-shia), simply because i am a shia muslim.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 57

MrFudgeTheGuy

Original post by Tawheed

(this is an ex-muslim speaking by the way)
Where was it written for Ali to become the next leader? The Prophet never said that Ali should be the next leader. The Prophet said that the most able leader should lead. Abu Bakr was so similar to the Prophet that the people of Medina mistook Abu Bakr for the Prophet. Abu Bakr was the closest person to the Prophet, so that is why he was picked as the next leader. He also didn't want to be leader, but he was the most able so everyone picked him. Same with Umar after him. Ali had no such divine right, just because he was the Prophet's nephew.

Reply 58

username945663

Original post by Tawheed

I have used rafidi on this account. Pretty sure I've even called another user one. I have rarely quoted you on other accounts. When I did argue with you on the odd day, I did it no differently than how I would've (or have done in the past) on Ideas.

You complain when I call you it and now you complain when I don't. You can't play victim on both these things.

If this is your way of avoiding answering my questions then it's fine, you can hide. Maybe some other person can answer it.

Reply 59

Tawheed

Original post by MrFudgeTheGuy

Where was it written for Ali to become the next leader? The Prophet never said that Ali should be the next leader.

The Prophet s.a.w appointed Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s , and affirmed it on the day of Ghadeer:

"When the Messenger of Allah (saw) returned from the farewell pilgrimage and stopped at Ghadeer Khum, he said: "It's as if I have received a call and I answered it - and that I am leaving among you two weighty things with one being greater than the other - the book of Allah and the progeny of my Ahlulbayt (as), so look at how they will be left with you after me. Verily they will not separate from each other until they reach me at the Lake-fount".

Then he said: "Verily Allah is my Mawla (master), and I am the Mawla of every believer". Then he grabbed the hands of 'Ali and said: "So whomsoever I am his Mawla then 'Ali is his Mawla. O Allah, support those who support him and oppose those who oppose him". Then I asked Zayd: Did you hear it from Allah's messenger? He answered: There was no one there who did not see and hear it with their eyes and ears. [Khasa'is Amir al-Mu'mineen, al-Nasa'i, page 96]

The Prophet said that the most able leader should lead.

Did you know, when Muhammed s.a.w used to leave his city, say for an expedition, he would never leave that city without himself appointing a leader to govern over that city?

It seems odd thus, that some people believe Muhammed s.a.w never himself either chose a leader and told the muslims that this was his choice (whose judgement is better than that of Muhammed s.a.w?)

And it also seems Odd that Muhammed s.a.w would not atleast faciliate the process himself , by letting the Muslims know he has given certian commands as to the time, manner and method they should use in selecting a leader after him.

Abu Bakr was so similar to the Prophet that the people of Medina mistook Abu Bakr for the Prophet.

Abu Bakr neither looked like the Prophet, nor will even a sunni muslim elevate his status to what you have just done (people mistaking him). Sunni's regard him as the best man at the time after the prophet, but i have never heard any saying they mistook him for the prophet.

Now , if you want to look for people who were genuinely mistaken for the Prophet s.a.w, look to the Ahlulbayt a.s, for in Saheeh Bukhari we find that Hasan , the son of Ali a.s, most resembled the prophet in his looks.

Abu Bakr was the closest person to the Prophet, so that is why he was picked as the next leader. He also didn't want to be leader, but he was the most able so everyone picked him. Same with Umar after him.

Well, i will quote to you the event, narrated by Caliph, Umar ibn Al Khattab, himself and allow you to judge whether people used logic, reason, and outright believed Hz. Abu Bakr was the rightful choice, or whether it was all extremely chaotic, and there was no such consensus:

Hz.Ummar Ibn Al Khattab narrates[ In Saheeh Al Bukhari]:

Hz. Umar's quotes will be in red, and are taken from the following hadith:
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/57

He first states, and makes clear: "One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful"

If it was so clear Hz. Abu Bakr was the most qualified, one should question why there was so much commotion, disagreement, and infighting.

He goes on to state: "After we sat for a while, the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army, while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it. "

Rather than acknowledging Hz.Abu Bakr was the best qualified, and that he, or even Umar are the best people, those of the Ansar who gathered at Saqifah with the likes of Abu Bakr and Umar, told these two that they felt they had a right to the posiiton.

He Further States: "[Abu Bakr said] :" ...I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubaida"

Notice, Hz.Abu Bakr never once in his speech states any of the ahadith we tend to see elleged to the Prophet s.a.w, about the superiority of him, or even Hz. Umar. We never see that. In fact, it does not even seem to be the case that the ansaar have ever heard it either.

He further states "And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin di ease (eczema) rubs itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

You can now see, that the Ansar who gathered at Saqifah rejected Hz.Abu Bakr' statement, and stated one leader should be from them and one from the emigrants.
He further states: "Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there might be great disagreement,"

Does this sound like a reasoned, well implemented method for choosing a leader for the muslims? To me, it sounds like one chaotic power struggle, and even Hz. Umar attests to the Rucus, chaos, and in-fighting that occured.

He further states: " so I said,O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa`d bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler)."

As you can see, peopler weren't told about the prophets alleged words of the superiority of Hz. Abu Bakr, or Hz. Umar. The people didn't even seem to acknowledge it, or remember it. Indeed, there was chaos, a power struggle, and people never at all picked hz.abu bakr due to their belief of his superiority - it seems as though in the chaos, Hz. Umar pledged allegiance to him, and something must have happened in the chaos and confusion we are not told.

Furthermore, a number of notable companions opposed Hz. Abu Bakr, including Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, who opposed him until the death of Fatima a.s:

As Hz. Umar states: "`Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us,"

As a non-muslim, try to look at this objectively, does this sound like a fair election, where many of the muslims were invited, or a very secret meeting in Saqifah, which was a chaotic power struggle, devoid of any legitimate argument, reason and means of choosing a leader?