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I played the (stock) markets today, and only lost £7.50, not too shabby?

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Original post by DJKL
Do remember, dividends can be cut and if cashflow issues it can be one of the first things to go. Why I like Shell, ridiculous number of years without a divi cut.


Shell will sack half their staff before they cut their dividend!

Shell will never cut, unless it physically cripples the business to the point it can't be run.
Original post by DJKL
Luck, nothing more.

I actually screwed up going out to cash pre referendum, I possibly would have done better doing nothing. In total since 23rd I am up 5.7%, I suspect I have over traded.


How can you afford to trade with these damn broker fees. It's only worth for me to trade if a stock is going to collapse.

I pay £11.95 a trade plus stamp duty. Most of my securities are worth 1.5K to 2K each cos of this broker fee problem.
Reply 102
Original post by fg45344
How can you afford to trade with these damn broker fees. It's only worth for me to trade if a stock is going to collapse.

I pay £11.95 a trade plus stamp duty. Most of my securities are worth 1.5K to 2K each cos of this broker fee problem.


Bigger amounts means lower cost per share, L & G is 3000 shares @ 167.85, £5.95 commission, £25.18 transfer stamp. with a total cost of £5066.63. I think lower brokerage with HL was because I have done a certain number of trades, usually I think £11.95.
Original post by DJKL
Bigger amounts means lower cost per share, L & G is 3000 shares @ 167.85, £5.95 commission, £25.18 transfer stamp. with a total cost of £5066.63. I think lower brokerage with HL was because I have done a certain number of trades, usually I think £11.95.


HL are thieves, they have the highest charges for everything. But my dad had this theory that we traded with different firms, if one of them went down, we wouldn't lose all our money (which is not true cos the security is not owned by HL but by us, if the London Stock Exchange goes down and all records vanish that's another issue...but i'm sure they have super backups)

To get 5.95 commission, you have to become a day trader. My aim is to max out my ISA to 30k in stocks and bonds. I want to keep a good deal in cash as well, cos it has to be liquid and frankly everything else in the world can collapse. Even owning a 5% bond these days isn't safe.

Might try gold, but I don't know how easy it is to sell on and if the buy/sell margins are too big?
Original post by DJKL
Bigger amounts means lower cost per share, L & G is 3000 shares @ 167.85, £5.95 commission, £25.18 transfer stamp. with a total cost of £5066.63. I think lower brokerage with HL was because I have done a certain number of trades, usually I think £11.95.


You clearly have a lot of money to put 5K in L&G, what is your job if I may ask?

You will make good money off that trade, even in the long run.
Reply 105
Original post by fg45344
HL are thieves, they have the highest charges for everything. But my dad had this theory that we traded with different firms, if one of them went down, we wouldn't lose all our money (which is not true cos the security is not owned by HL but by us, if the London Stock Exchange goes down and all records vanish that's another issue...but i'm sure they have super backups)

To get 5.95 commission, you have to become a day trader. My aim is to max out my ISA to 30k in stocks and bonds. I want to keep a good deal in cash as well, cos it has to be liquid and frankly everything else in the world can collapse. Even owning a 5% bond these days isn't safe.

Might try gold, but I don't know how easy it is to sell on and if the buy/sell margins are too big?


Re gold Fresnillo may be worth a look, but you may have missed the boat:

http://www.fresnilloplc.com/

Now if I had bought on 23rd:smile:
Original post by DJKL
Re gold Fresnillo may be worth a look, but you may have missed the boat:

http://www.fresnilloplc.com/

Now if I had bought on 23rd:smile:


As in actual gold bars, keep a few under my bed!

Yeah I always miss the good buys or I tell people to buy it and they are like, maybe next time. The next day the price will shoot up 5-8% and keep rallying. :/

Gold is pretty good at retaining it's value and usually beats inflation. But it doesn't generate income....but it makes a handy door stop.
Reply 107
Original post by fg45344
You clearly have a lot of money to put 5K in L&G, what is your job if I may ask?

You will make good money off that trade, even in the long run.


I am a bean counter (accountant) but these days I only practice part time in evenings/weekends. During the week I work for a privately owned property group as FD (General admin/HR/everything everyone else does not want to do, maybe 2 days a week on accounts/tax, the rest boring admin)
Original post by DJKL
I am a bean counter (accountant) but these days I only practice part time in evenings/weekends. During the week I work for a privately owned property group as FD (General admin/HR/everything everyone else does not want to do, maybe 2 days a week on accounts/tax, the rest boring admin)


I'm still a student, doing a PhD in Economics. My background is mostly Finance and Mathematics. MSc in Finance and Econometrics. Bsc in Mathematics.

I would love to teach finance and extract share tips from the students, they will get extra marks if our bets go right!
Original post by fg45344
I disagree, look at the FTSE 100 returns over 30 years with dividends reinvested, or the Dow 30 returns over 30 years with dividends reinvested. You will always be positive in the very long run if you invest in blue chips.

The market always recovers, it has and never will go to 0, now sport betting is a mugs game, because you can lose it all in a day. The financial equivalent of sports betting is the derivatives market and any sane investor stays away from that, unless they want some protection on their stocks.


What you said makes no sense.
Reply 110
Original post by fg45344
You clearly have a lot of money to put 5K in L&G, what is your job if I may ask?

You will make good money off that trade, even in the long run.


If you want a tip re long term saving start with small regular amounts which auto increase by say 10% every year, the pension that is now the SIPP started with 25pm in 1988,. I never missed the extra 10% each year when the contribution increased.

Initially it was with Standard Life (they managed it-so so) and I switched it to the SIPP in about 2008 when it reached a reasonable size (by that time I had halted the 10% increase, we had children going to university and they were expensive)

Reason I post here is I found this site when researching universities re my son in about 2008, but I am old (mid 50s) so the reason I do have the funds to invest if I saved for a very very long time whilst buying the house and all the other costs over the years.
Reply 111
Original post by fg45344
I'm still a student, doing a PhD in Economics. My background is mostly Finance and Mathematics. MSc in Finance and Econometrics. Bsc in Mathematics.

I would love to teach finance and extract share tips from the students, they will get extra marks if our bets go right!



I did enjoy the business finance I learned at university and with ICAS but it was rushed as I did a PG crash accountancy conversion course over one year as my first degree was humanities. (Though I slipped in some economics and economic history, advantage of Scottish degrees) The business finance was covered in one term and ICAS tended to be learn then churn rather than study and examine.

I still have my old Samuels and Wilkes and even purchased a newer one a few years ago, it is a useful skillset., I can even remember working through the Modigliani and Miller model re capital/equity structure but these days cannot remember what is said,(something to do with arbitrage and structure did not impact cost of capital, I think.

Did you cover much re accountancy re your courses, if not I am a firm believer that even if you cannot prepare accounts understanding them really helps re evaluating companies.

Afraid the maths bit would pass me by these days, when my son did his Scottish Higher I realised I had forgotten it all, Higher and first year university, I was lucky if I could have still passed standard grade; it is true, use it or lose it.

So, interesting (and understandable to the layman) dissertation re the PhD or something only three people in the world will read once it is published?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by DJKL
If you want a tip re long term saving start with small regular amounts which auto increase by say 10% every year, the pension that is now the SIPP started with 25pm in 1988,. I never missed the extra 10% each year when the contribution increased.

Initially it was with Standard Life (they managed it-so so) and I switched it to the SIPP in about 2008 when it reached a reasonable size (by that time I had halted the 10% increase, we had children going to university and they were expensive)

Reason I post here is I found this site when researching universities re my son in about 2008, but I am old (mid 50s) so the reason I do have the funds to invest if I saved for a very very long time whilst buying the house and all the other costs over the years.


More young people should invest! I hope your son is following in your footsteps....if anything holding something like a well diversified US fund will do.

What is the benefit of an SIPP over an ISA, couldn't you put your pension money in your ISA as the years go by. So like 15K this year, 12K the year before. Never really looked into SIPP
Original post by DJKL
If you want a tip re long term saving start with small regular amounts which auto increase by say 10% every year, the pension that is now the SIPP started with 25pm in 1988,. I never missed the extra 10% each year when the contribution increased.

Initially it was with Standard Life (they managed it-so so) and I switched it to the SIPP in about 2008 when it reached a reasonable size (by that time I had halted the 10% increase, we had children going to university and they were expensive)

Reason I post here is I found this site when researching universities re my son in about 2008, but I am old (mid 50s) so the reason I do have the funds to invest if I saved for a very very long time whilst buying the house and all the other costs over the years.


Now you got me thinking about my pension, I have none right now. I'm aware I need to protect my money from inflation. Why can't I just buy blue chip stocks and hold them till 60, like proper blue blue chips....maybe something like a coca cola or shell, something that shouldn't go bust in my lifetime.

Or does the SIPP get money given by the government, they don't teach us anything in school.
Reply 114
Original post by fg45344
More young people should invest! I hope your son is following in your footsteps....if anything holding something like a well diversified US fund will do.

What is the benefit of an SIPP over an ISA, couldn't you put your pension money in your ISA as the years go by. So like 15K this year, 12K the year before. Never really looked into SIPP


The SIPP shades it with tax relief, in effect if a basic rate taxpayer pays in £80 the government pays in £20, If higher rate put in £80, government puts in £20, get further £20 back against tax re self assessment liability so net cost £60.

A SIPP is just a pension (Self Invested Personal Pension)

There is an admin cost, HL charge me £200 p.a., so you need critical mass or a lower cost provider.

But there is no free lunch, whilst all dividends/gains etc are tax free within a pension, you cannot usually take anything out until 55, Then you can withdraw 25% tax free and any further amount is taxed at your marginal rate in the year it is drawn, though currently you can withdraw as much as you like.

If you are a higher rate taxpayer during working life but basic rate taxpayer in retirement, it does pay, but remember you cannot access easily and pension rules keep changing.

The best pensions are where an employer also pays in, free money (well not really but it feels that way, if they did not they possibly would have paid you more)

If you are younger and basic rate taxpayer the ISA may make more sense, when a house deposit needed you can access etc

My son (24) pays max to his employer's scheme and they match, I think circa 15% salary in total. He also has a monthly cash ISA as he is saving for either a house deposit or to move overseas (Graduate Software Developer)
Original post by DJKL
The SIPP shades it with tax relief, in effect if a basic rate taxpayer pays in £80 the government pays in £20, If higher rate put in £80, government puts in £20, get further £20 back against tax re self assessment liability so net cost £60.

A SIPP is just a pension (Self Invested Personal Pension)

There is an admin cost, HL charge me £200 p.a., so you need critical mass or a lower cost provider.

But there is no free lunch, whilst all dividends/gains etc are tax free within a pension, you cannot usually take anything out until 55, Then you can withdraw 25% tax free and any further amount is taxed at your marginal rate in the year it is drawn, though currently you can withdraw as much as you like.

If you are a higher rate taxpayer during working life but basic rate taxpayer in retirement, it does pay, but remember you cannot access easily and pension rules keep changing.

The best pensions are where an employer also pays in, free money (well not really but it feels that way, if they did not they possibly would have paid you more)

If you are younger and basic rate taxpayer the ISA may make more sense, when a house deposit needed you can access etc

My son (24) pays max to his employer's scheme and they match, I think circa 15% salary in total. He also has a monthly cash ISA as he is saving for either a house deposit or to move overseas (Graduate Software Developer)



But then how safe is a normal pension...surely the pension funds are dumping all this cash in S&P 500 funds, why can't you do this yourself?

Stocks give you the highest return over a very long time period, but then what happens to your pension if say coca cola decided to go bust? Do you take the hit on that or do the government help out?
Reply 116
Original post by fg45344
But then how safe is a normal pension...surely the pension funds are dumping all this cash in S&P 500 funds, why can't you do this yourself?

Stocks give you the highest return over a very long time period, but then what happens to your pension if say coca cola decided to go bust? Do you take the hit on that or do the government help out?


You take the hit in a money purchase scheme, whatever is bought is your risk, though there is compensation, I think, if they run away with the money, but that does not happen

Final salary schemes are different, the employer's scheme promises to pay usually 1/60th or 1/80th of your final salary usually index linked for each year of service, if you do become a lecturer I think that will be sort of scheme employer may offer (Civil service, teachers, public servants etc tend to get offered these at present, private sector now very scarce) If they become unfunded there is a scheme but you do take a hit, see recent BHS news.

Do remember that the pension office money purchase funds are pretty spread re where invested so single share risk is tiny, where money does leak is charges (bid offer spread etc)

Sometimes with money purchase compensation can be offered, but that was more re with profit funds (equitable life paid my wife re a small fund she had with them) and whilst WP were popular in the 1980s (My Standard Life started as one) they have since fallen out of favour.

I have said for years all of this ought to be explained at school, plus basic tax, benefits, NI etc, it is a real shame it is not. I was lucky, my father was a solicitor and was financially savvy, so I picked up a lot from him (plus through work), I work with people in their 40s with no pensions, no long term savings, the only thing they own is part of their house, and they somehow think come 65-66-67 it will be alright, it will not, they will be working into their 70s as they will not be able to afford to stop.
Reply 117
Original post by DJKL
You take the hit in a money purchase scheme, whatever is bought is your risk, though there is compensation, I think, if they run away with the money, but that does not happen

Final salary schemes are different, the employer's scheme promises to pay usually 1/60th or 1/80th of your final salary usually index linked for each year of service, if you do become a lecturer I think that will be sort of scheme employer may offer (Civil service, teachers, public servants etc tend to get offered these at present, private sector now very scarce) If they become unfunded there is a scheme but you do take a hit, see recent BHS news.

Do remember that the pension office money purchase funds are pretty spread re where invested so single share risk is tiny, where money does leak is charges (bid offer spread etc)

Sometimes with money purchase compensation can be offered, but that was more re with profit funds (equitable life paid my wife re a small fund she had with them) and whilst WP were popular in the 1980s (My Standard Life started as one) they have since fallen out of favour.

I have said for years all of this ought to be explained at school, plus basic tax, benefits, NI etc, it is a real shame it is not. I was lucky, my father was a solicitor and was financially savvy, so I picked up a lot from him (plus through work), I work with people in their 40s with no pensions, no long term savings, the only thing they own is part of their house, and they somehow think come 65-66-67 it will be alright, it will not, they will be working into their 70s as they will not be able to afford to stop.


My dad and mum don't know very much about money i'm afraid. Specifically my dad, when i told him that i was getting in to the stock market, he told me that he wouldn't talk about it, but that it was foolish. Then i lost a small percent, and pulled the lot out, at a loss i might add. I will consider reinvesting at some point, i am even thinking about spending $300 on a 'learn the market' course by barry burns.I have already watched some of his videos, and he seems to know what he is talking about.

To be honest with you, the last time i looked, the markets started low and went up throughout the day. So if i could get up in time, this would make sense as the right time to buy and sell. My only problem is that i struggle to sleep at the right time, sadly!
Reply 118
Original post by john2054
My dad and mum don't know very much about money i'm afraid. Specifically my dad, when i told him that i was getting in to the stock market, he told me that he wouldn't talk about it, but that it was foolish. Then i lost a small percent, and pulled the lot out, at a loss i might add. I will consider reinvesting at some point, i am even thinking about spending $300 on a 'learn the market' course by barry burns.I have already watched some of his videos, and he seems to know what he is talking about.

To be honest with you, the last time i looked, the markets started low and went up throughout the day. So if i could get up in time, this would make sense as the right time to buy and sell. My only problem is that i struggle to sleep at the right time, sadly!


John,

Don't spend $300 on a video course, it won't be worth it. Buy yourself a book for £10 to £30. There are loads out there, The Intelligent Investor, The Naked Trader etc etc. They are infinitely better than a video course, which I guarantee will be overpriced. In fact, buy both of those two books. The second is more accessible to start, and the first can be read afterwards. Even if you decide you don't want to go into the market, they are good reads.

On your second point, there is no systematic pattern to what the markets do that can be determined as easily as that. Sure, there are some patterns that repeat - these are what algorithms try to detect - but these can break at a moment's notice, and I assure you that they certainly aren't as simple as start low at 8am, go high by 4.35pm!
Original post by john2054
I played the (stock) markets today, and only lost £7.50, not too shabby?

I was actually down £10 right away because of a bad deal i made, so then i tried to get some of this back.

I was actually down around £13/14 at one point, but made some good money on a buy of the pound against the dollar, and sold when the pound was strong, then again with gold, meaning that i only lost £7.50 altogether. I think that this is quite good going huh? For someone who has never traded before i mean??


How did you go about starting to trade?

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