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How does being concerned about spread of Islam in the West make someone far-right?

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Reply 40
Original post by MrControversial

...it's the liberal left that have lost their marbles.


You nearly managed to avoid resorting to stereotypes! Nice try.

But back on point, fair enough if you are focusing on the hardline ideologies and regimes based on Islam. They are the biggest threat right now. But do you think you're going to manage to tackle that by taking the approach that Islam is a problem? You need to make it clear from the outset that you're either for religion or against it in principle, and from that basis your current focus on Islam is due to the current issues involving a tiny minority of Muslims.
Original post by offhegoes
You nearly managed to avoid resorting to stereotypes! Nice try.

But back on point, fair enough if you are focusing on the hardline ideologies and regimes based on Islam. They are the biggest threat right now. But do you think you're going to manage to tackle that by taking the approach that Islam is a problem? You need to make it clear from the outset that you're either for religion or against it in principle, and from that basis your current focus on Islam is due to the current issues involving a tiny minority of Muslims.


Stereotypes are fine when they are accurate. I used to be a member of the liberal left but liberally left when it became increasingly less rational, more driven by fear, ironically more authoritarian, more emotional, more morally elitist while clinging to ideological extremism and something I could no longer associate with. I'm am apostate essentially. For all intents and purposes, I'm worse to them than a skinhead neo-nazi.

You're giving quite an absolute ultimatum there but there's no basis for it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 42
Original post by MrControversial
Stereotypes are fine when they are accurate. I used to be a member of the liberal left but liberally left when it became increasingly less rational, more driven by fear, ironically more authoritarian, more emotional, more morally elitist while clinging to ideological extremism and something I could no longer associate with. I'm am apostate essentially. For all intents and purposes, I'm worse to them than a skinhead neo-nazi.

You're giving quite an absolute ultimatum there but there's no basis for it.


The basis for it is that, short of a crazy person with a nuke or two (Trump), brutal regimes based on Islam can only legitimately be brought down by the citizens of those countries. ISIS can only be stopped through starving it of converts. Neither of these things are going to be achieved by Westerners telling them that Islam is bad, which I disagree with anyway. The change is only going to come from enough Muslims in these places recognising that their religion doesn't have to be practised in such a hardline fashion (which the majority know anyway) and also being brave enough to make their voices heard.

And that final part is the trickiest bit. We've all heard of moderate personalities hacked to death for preaching tolerance. Would any of us have the bravery to stick our heads above the parapet in such a country?
Original post by offhegoes
The basis for it is that, short of a crazy person with a nuke or two (Trump), brutal regimes based on Islam can only legitimately be brought down by the citizens of those countries. ISIS can only be stopped through starving it of converts. Neither of these things are going to be achieved by Westerners telling them that Islam is bad, which I disagree with anyway. The change is only going to come from enough Muslims in these places recognising that their religion doesn't have to be practised in such a hardline fashion (which the majority know anyway) and also being brave enough to make their voices heard.

And that final part is the trickiest bit. We've all heard of moderate personalities hacked to death for preaching tolerance. Would any of us have the bravery to stick our heads above the parapet in such a country?


That's intervention which is another story and I agree has not helped at all with moderation. But then again neither do megalomaniacs such as Erdogan. What you're saying about the citizens of the country isn't literally true but there is a core truth to it. The people need to change and you can't always pin everything on one person.

Actually ISIS itself ironically may end up starving a lot of extremism of converts if they keep pooling in one place to get killed but capitalising on that is not as simple as it sounds.

In regards to Islam in the west personally I don't give things like terrorism a second thought. My concern is that by our standards, even few moderate Muslims are really moderate. A combination of factors are not working well towards achieving moderation. One of those issues being that we are importing people from other cultures in too quickly for them to normalise and if anything we're causing them to form enclaves and resistant communities. Attacking our freedom of speech when it comes to Islam has caused untold damage on the integration front. No one, not even a fair, reasonable and rational person is going to want to talk with, to or about Islam when they're given special privileges.
Reply 44
Very good post.
Reply 45
Original post by offhegoes
I'll do that when you stop pretending the majority of people who criticise Islam do so fairly, differentiating between a religion followed peacefully by over a billion people worldwide and an ideology involving a tiny minority of Muslims involved in terrorism :wink:


I can easily do that, clearly some groups like the EDL are filled with belligerent morons, but how does me doing that affect the reality of the situation? If you accept my point is true, why does it matter? Are you interested in addressing reality, or are you willing to use doublethink in order to give yourself extra distance from your opposition? Because if you think what I say is true, but you're willing to pretend it isn't in-order to serve your cause, then that's pretty intellectually dishonest.

Original post by offhegoes

Done? So, Islam is clearly not going anywhere in a hurry and neither is Christianity or any of the other major religions. So the question is, how do we minimise the negative elements of organised religion?


Criticize it with cogent, intelligent arguments that people will eventually, over a very, very long time, begin to see the truth of.
No i dont think that opposing the ideologies and teachings of islam makes u Right wing. But being kinda racist against Muslims is.
Besides The koran has got some pretty shady stuff written in it.
Reply 47
It doesn't, it just happens that most people who are concerned about it are though..
Reply 48
Original post by offhegoes
I think this the important part - Islam itself is not an ideology, it is a religion.
This is incorrect. Unlike all other religions, Islam contains both the blueprint and the fine detail for society - religious, social, economic, legal, military. It is an ideology by any definition.

Just like Christianity has poisonous ideologies based upon it (KKK, sectarianism in Ireland),
The KKK was based on white supremacy and economic control of the Southern states after the Civil War - not Christianity.

Islam has ideologies cultivated based upon it. ISIS being of course the most prominent,
ISIS does not follow an ideology separate to Islam. It follows a literalist, retentionist and unmodernised Islam. Every action and statement is referenced to the Quran or sunnah.

alongside brutal regimes such as in Saudi Arabia,
The constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Quran and sunnah. That is why it is so brutal!

Whilst most of the worst of Christian idologies and regimes have died out in the last few centuries, many Islamic ones still persist and are even growing.
And where do these "Islamic states" get their ideology from?
A recent bill in the Pakistan partliament to outlaw domestic violence was rejected because powerful Islamic groups condemned it as unislamic - because the Quran gives Muslims permission to beat disobedient wives, under certain conditions. It is the adherance to Islamic ideology that perpetuates the brutality.
It is no coincidence that the more secular a system, the better its record on human rights, gender equality, etc.

[quoteThese brutal regimes and cult-like ideologies based on Islam (and Buddhism, and Christianity, et...) should be condemned wherever they appear, of course. Exactly.
As should the source of the ideology. You cannot condemn ISIS for using female captives for sex if you do not condemn the Quran and sunnah for permitting the use of female captives for sex.
It really is that simple.

But to rail against Islam itself is to rail against the billions of peaceful Muslims living all around the world.
It is vitally important to be able to distinguish between an ideology, and the behaviour of individuals who subscribe to that ideology.
If you use the behaviour of Muslims as indicative of the nature of Islam, then you must also accept the behaviour of those Muslims in ISIS, Boko Haram, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc, etc... as "Islamic".

For me it is when people do this that I am likely to have some thoughts about their attitudes, with the exception of those who condemn all organised religion, which is a viewpoint that I don't agree with but do understand.
It is simply because Islam has such a high profile that it receives more attention. And its profile has led to more people finding out more about Islam as an ideology and judging Islam on that, rather than the behaviour of the Muslims that they know and meet.

And that is where it gets complicated and unlike any other current religion.
Few Muslims in the west (and certainly none that I know) would admit to, or support, wife beating, of keeping slaves and raping the females, or flogging people for having adult, consensual sex.
However, if you ask them to condemn or reject the passages of the Quran that explicitly allow these things, they will refuse - despite also claiming that the Quran is the perfect, universal and timeless guide for all humanity, because it is the actual, literal word of god.
Reply 49
Original post by offhegoes
I'll do that when you stop pretending the majority of people who criticise Islam do so fairly, differentiating between a religion followed peacefully by over a billion people worldwide and an ideology involving a tiny minority of Muslims involved in terrorism :wink:
False dichotomy.
There are many millions of Muslims who, whilst not engaged in "violent jihad" themselves, will refuse to condemn both the aims of the jihadists, and the scriptural justifications that they use.

The "peaceful" Muslim who believes that every word of the Quran is still acceptable and applicable, and that the example of Muhammad is the ultimate role model for all humanity, is as much a part of the problem as the "violent" Muslims who actually act on those words and examples.

It is the silent acquiescance of the majority that gives the minority its legitimacy, and until that majority can unite and say "The Quran is not perfect, timeless and universal. It is a historically and culturally relative document that can be looked at through a revisionist and enlightened lens", then Islam will continue to be an issue unlike Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism, etc.
Original post by offhegoes

However Islam is no more an ideology than Christianity or Buddhism.


Islam became an ideology the moment the concept of sharia law was introduced into it, which deals not just with a man's relationship with the purported deity but also has rules for man's dealings with others, how he may allocate his financial legacy, the position of women in society and with punishments for supposed sins and crimes.
Reply 51
Original post by Good bloke
Islam became an ideology the moment the concept of sharia law was introduced into it, which deals not just with a man's relationship with the purported deity but also has rules for man's dealings with others, how he may allocate his financial legacy, the position of women in society and with punishments for supposed sins and crimes.


Just the the commandments and intstructions in the Bible on how to live also make Christianity an ideology?
Original post by offhegoes
I'll do that when you stop pretending the majority of people who criticise Islam do so fairly, differentiating between a religion followed peacefully by over a billion people worldwide and an ideology involving a tiny minority of Muslims involved in terrorism :wink:


Perhaps the reaction to this woman's fair criticisms of Islam will tell you about how fairly the Organization of Islamic Cooperation deals with criticism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/meet-the-honor-brigade-an-organized-campaign-to-silence-critics-of-islam/2015/01/16/0b002e5a-9aaf-11e4-a7ee-526210d665b4_story.html

Original post by offhegoes
how do we minimise the negative elements of organised religion?


A good first step would be to outlaw the indoctrination of anyone under eighteen years of age into any religion, or at least ban any organisation that benefits from public funds or tax reliefs from doing so.
Reply 53
Original post by QE2
False dichotomy.
There are many millions of Muslims who, whilst not engaged in "violent jihad" themselves, will refuse to condemn both the aims of the jihadists, and the scriptural justifications that they use.

The "peaceful" Muslim who believes that every word of the Quran is still acceptable and applicable, and that the example of Muhammad is the ultimate role model for all humanity, is as much a part of the problem as the "violent" Muslims who actually act on those words and examples.

It is the silent acquiescance of the majority that gives the minority its legitimacy, and until that majority can unite and say "The Quran is not perfect, timeless and universal. It is a historically and culturally relative document that can be looked at through a revisionist and enlightened lens", then Islam will continue to be an issue unlike Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism, etc.


Do you expect Irish people to continually apologise for sectarian violence? Do you expect Christians across USA to continually condemn those who attack abortion doctors? Do you expect Buddhists to continually apologise for Buddhist monks in Tibet murdering men, women and children?
Original post by offhegoes
Just the the commandments and intstructions in the Bible on how to live also make Christianity an ideology?


I believe all religions are ideologies, with varying levels of political ambition. The commandments, though, are only quidelines for behaviour; they do not impose punishments on transgressors.
Reply 55
Original post by QE2
This is incorrect. Unlike all other religions, Islam contains both the blueprint and the fine detail for society - religious, social, economic, legal, military. It is an ideology by any definition.

The KKK was based on white supremacy and economic control of the Southern states after the Civil War - not Christianity.

ISIS does not follow an ideology separate to Islam. It follows a literalist, retentionist and unmodernised Islam. Every action and statement is referenced to the Quran or sunnah.

The constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Quran and sunnah. That is why it is so brutal!

And where do these "Islamic states" get their ideology from?
A recent bill in the Pakistan partliament to outlaw domestic violence was rejected because powerful Islamic groups condemned it as unislamic - because the Quran gives Muslims permission to beat disobedient wives, under certain conditions. It is the adherance to Islamic ideology that perpetuates the brutality.
It is no coincidence that the more secular a system, the better its record on human rights, gender equality, etc.

These brutal regimes and cult-like ideologies based on Islam (and Buddhism, and Christianity, et...) should be condemned wherever they appear, of course.
Exactly.
As should the source of the ideology. You cannot condemn ISIS for using female captives for sex if you do not condemn the Quran and sunnah for permitting the use of female captives for sex.
It really is that simple.

It is vitally important to be able to distinguish between an ideology, and the behaviour of individuals who subscribe to that ideology.
If you use the behaviour of Muslims as indicative of the nature of Islam, then you must also accept the behaviour of those Muslims in ISIS, Boko Haram, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc, etc... as "Islamic".

It is simply because Islam has such a high profile that it receives more attention. And its profile has led to more people finding out more about Islam as an ideology and judging Islam on that, rather than the behaviour of the Muslims that they know and meet.

And that is where it gets complicated and unlike any other current religion.
Few Muslims in the west (and certainly none that I know) would admit to, or support, wife beating, of keeping slaves and raping the females, or flogging people for having adult, consensual sex.
However, if you ask them to condemn or reject the passages of the Quran that explicitly allow these things, they will refuse - despite also claiming that the Quran is the perfect, universal and timeless guide for all humanity, because it is the actual, literal word of god.


I think we are in agreement that hardline adherence to religious scripture is a bad thing and that the prominence of extremist regimes based on Islamic scripture is why that is the current focus is on Islam.

But I don't believe Islam is an worse or any more an ideology than any other major religion, and as such we have to be consistent in our attitudes to any religion.
Original post by offhegoes
the prominence of extremist regimes based on Islamic scripture is why that is the current focus is on Islam.


No. Islam's biggest problem is that its base scripture states unequivocally that it was dictated directly by the supposed deity to a chosen "prophet", that it is complete and perfect, applicable for all time in all places, and that there is no room in the religion for interpretations. No other religion makes such claims for itself, which suited Mohammed in his quest to get his superstitious desert followers to do his bidding, but those statements leave modern Moslems with no room for wriggling against the Islamists.

The same Islamic scripture demonstrates that Islam condones slavery, treats women as second class citizens (as are unbelievers, of course) and has many other dogma that are contrary to twenty-first century morality and political thinking in the west. This will always cause massive tensions between Moslems and other western citizens.

How do you plan to overcome these problems?
Reply 57
Original post by offhegoes
But I don't believe Islam is an worse or any more an ideology than any other major religion, and as such we have to be consistent in our attitudes to any religion.
In that case, it is apparent that you do not fully understand the nature of Islam, especially compared to other religions.

It is meaningless and unhelpful to simply say "But I don't believe X..." when presented with an explanation for X.
Reply 58
Original post by offhegoes
Do you expect Irish people to continually apologise for sectarian violence?
Why are you asking this question? Who said anything about "continually apologising"?
I do not expect anyone to apologise for anything unless they bear responsibility.
The people who had no part in the actions have no need to apologise, and by definition those who did, will not believe that they have anything to apologise for.

However, what I do expect is that those who insist that the Quran (and sunnah) are perfect, infallible and immutable, accept that those who act on its instructions are behaving in a way that is sanctioned by the ideology.

Do you expect Christians across USA to continually condemn those who attack abortion doctors?
No. Once will do.

Do you expect Buddhists to continually apologise for Buddhist monks in Tibet murdering men, women and children?
Not if they had nothing to do with it.
BTW, does Buddhist ideology contain passages that sanction such actions, because if it does not, your question is a non sequitur in the context of this issue?
Reply 59
Original post by Good bloke
No. Islam's biggest problem is that its base scripture states unequivocally that it was dictated directly by the supposed deity to a chosen "prophet", that it is complete and perfect, applicable for all time in all places, and that there is no room in the religion for interpretations. No other religion makes such claims for itself, which suited Mohammed in his quest to get his superstitious desert followers to do his bidding, but those statements leave modern Moslems with no room for wriggling against the Islamists.

The same Islamic scripture demonstrates that Islam condones slavery, treats women as second class citizens (as are unbelievers, of course) and has many other dogma that are contrary to twenty-first century morality and political thinking in the west. This will always cause massive tensions between Moslems and other western citizens.

How do you plan to overcome these problems?


19th century Christian Britain would cause tensions with 21st century Christianity. So perhaps the solution lies in encouraging social change as quickly as possible, which is never as fast as we would like.

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