Labour Owen Smith offers 2nd Ref for Remainers Watch

illegaltobepoor
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If elected leader Owen Smith will try and subvert democracy and get a 2nd referendum for the people of the UK.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-labour-leader
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RuWill2001
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No, sorry. I would prefer to vote for the Lib Dems (Who are proposing the same thing) than vote for a Labour party that is lead by someone who isn't Corbyn.

Okay, that sounds silly (The way I have put it). But I couldn't vote for a Labour party that has got rid of a leader who has been great so far. If he preformed badly in an election I could understand if there was a vote of no confidence, but I don't think there is any reason to get rid of him now.
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paul514
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How to make sure the Labour Party splits 101

Thankfully I don't hate the conservatives because no one is going to be able to take the seat of government from them for a generation the way eagle and smith are going


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viffer
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(Original post by paul514)
How to make sure the Labour Party splits 101

Thankfully I don't hate the conservatives because no one is going to be able to take the seat of government from them for a generation the way eagle and smith are going
Eagle, Smith or 'the rebels' are not the problem in making Labour unelectable. Having moved considerably to the left too many (from their blinkered ideological perspective) of the GBP will not vote for them. And long may that continue.
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SakuraCayla
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to be clear his referendum would be on the brexit deal, as in the deal that we would get from brexit. I don't really see an issue with this. A repeat of the eu ref I don't exactly buy. But people have the right to continue to protest, and to make their case.
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paul514
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(Original post by Kay_Winters)
to be clear his referendum would be on the brexit deal, as in the deal that we would get from brexit. I don't really see an issue with this. A repeat of the eu ref I don't exactly buy. But people have the right to continue to protest, and to make their case.
A deal doesn't need to be ratified by the public, it wasn't the terms of the original vote. This is simply a case of so how can we get the right answer by asking the question again.

You can dislike something if you want but there is a democratic mandate to leave the European Union what ever the terms are.


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Duncan2012
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Smith would need to win the Labour leadership contest. Labour would need to be elected in 2020 with a manifesto pledge to hold a second referendum. The majority would need to vote Remain. The UK would need to apply to join the EU. The UK would need to wait years. The EU would need to agree on letting us in. The UK would need to join on the EU's terms.

Never going to happen.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by paul514)

You can dislike something if you want but there is a democratic mandate to leave the European Union what ever the terms are.
That is clearly not the case. A lot of people would regard it as a betrayal if a "leave" deal continued free movement of people. Another large group would regard it as unthinkable that we would lose access to the single market.

However, he needs to address the "then what?" question if the proposal is voted down. It would be undemocratic if the public did not know whether they were voting to abandon Brexit or to attempt to renegotiate. I suspect re-negotiation is a non-starter, and if so, the public would need to be clear that this would be a vote to abandon Brexit.
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Doones
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(Original post by Duncan2012)
The UK would need to apply to join the EU. The UK would need to wait years. The EU would need to agree on letting us in. The UK would need to join on the EU's terms.
This bit isn't the case if a referendum happens before A50 "expires". We can stop leaving at any point in the 2 year window.

We are the one's who activate A50, and the legal advice to the House Of Lords is we can change our mind.

http://theconversation.com/once-the-...urn-back-61727

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Llamageddon
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Anybody who thinks Corbyn is doing well doesn't understand politics
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Duncan2012)
Smith would need to win the Labour leadership contest. Labour would need to be elected in 2020 with a manifesto pledge to hold a second referendum. The majority would need to vote Remain. The UK would need to apply to join the EU. The UK would need to wait years. The EU would need to agree on letting us in. The UK would need to join on the EU's terms.

Never going to happen.
I don't think Labour would need to be elected in 2020.

This is a government with a majority of 12 (a little more because of SF). Do you really think every Tory backbencher regards himself bound to any particular form of Brexit simply because May's government chose it?John Major had a much bigger majority but got Maastricht through by the skin of his teeth. Do you really think think folk who have been rebelling over the EU for decades are suddenly going to convince the likes of Ken Clare to tow the line?
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Duncan2012
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(Original post by jneill)
This bit isn't the case if a referendum happens before A50 "expires". We can stop leaving at any point in the 2 year window.

We are the one's who activate A50, and the legal advice to the House Of Lords is we can change our mind.

http://theconversation.com/once-the-...urn-back-61727

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Not necessarily - legal advice is not always the final 'correct' answer - just look at the legal advice the Labour NEC got saying Corbyn would need to get nominations to be on the leadership ballot.

Your link says clearly "some constitutional lawyers are taking the opposite view". We're in uncharted waters here and it would be one hell of a gamble assuming someone could halt A50 once triggered. With May saying "Brexit means Brexit" I strongly suspect we'll be out of the EU by the time of the next GE.
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username878267
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
That is clearly not the case. A lot of people would regard it as a betrayal if a "leave" deal continued free movement of people. Another large group would regard it as unthinkable that we would lose access to the single market.

However, he needs to address the "then what?" question if the proposal is voted down. It would be undemocratic if the public did not know whether they were voting to abandon Brexit or to attempt to renegotiate. I suspect re-negotiation is a non-starter, and if so, the public would need to be clear that this would be a vote to abandon Brexit.
I don't get how this would legally work though.

To get a deal to put to the British people we would have to activat Article 50 which means we would leave in two years as the EU has said no informal negotiations. So if we reject the deal what happens? We can't reverse the activation of Article 50 surely.*
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Doones
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(Original post by Duncan2012)
Not necessarily - legal advice is not always the final 'correct' answer - just look at the legal advice the Labour NEC got saying Corbyn would need to get nominations to be on the leadership ballot.

Your link says clearly "some constitutional lawyers are taking the opposite view". We're in uncharted waters here and it would be one hell of a gamble assuming someone could halt A50 once triggered. With May saying "Brexit means Brexit" I strongly suspect we'll be out of the EU by the time of the next GE.
Agreed on the legal opinion bit.

But it's kind of important we do have a clear understanding BEFORE activating A50, because it would significantly affect negotiations if we can cancel A50 and stay in the EU, or vice versa.

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Sisuphos
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Actually read what you post.

Owen Smith has set out his stall for the Labour leadership by saying he would offer the public a second referendum to ratify any Brexit deal Britain strikes with the EU.
Seems entirely reasonable to me. People should have a say over the new deal. Nobody's subverting democracy you tool.
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Duncan2012
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I don't think Labour would need to be elected in 2020.

This is a government with a majority of 12 (a little more because of SF). Do you really think every Tory backbencher regards himself bound to any particular form of Brexit simply because May's government chose it?John Major had a much bigger majority but got Maastricht through by the skin of his teeth. Do you really think think folk who have been rebelling over the EU for decades are suddenly going to convince the likes of Ken Clare to tow the line?
The significant difference this time is the will of the public as expressed through the referendum. Maastricht was never put to a referendum in the UK. It was in France, where it scraped through with just over 51% and was ratified.

Although the result is not legally binding, Ken Clarke et al know they would be seriously risking the wrath of the public if they did not pursue Brexit now that the public has spoken.
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Duncan2012
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(Original post by jneill)
Agreed on the legal opinion bit.

But it's kind of important we do have a clear understanding BEFORE activating A50, because it would significantly affect negotiations if we can cancel A50 and stay in the EU, or vice versa.

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Agreed.
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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by RuWill2001)
No, sorry. I would prefer to vote for the Lib Dems (Who are proposing the same thing) than vote for a Labour party that is lead by someone who isn't Corbyn.

Okay, that sounds silly (The way I have put it). But I couldn't vote for a Labour party that has got rid of a leader who has been great so far. If he preformed badly in an election I could understand if there was a vote of no confidence, but I don't think there is any reason to get rid of him now.
ROFL. Performed well so far?

He is a leader that doesn't have any support in his party and traditional Labour areas completely routed in the last referendum.

Any other leader would have had the grace to stand aside when he loses support of 2/3rds of his party.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Duncan2012)
Ken Clarke et al know they would be seriously risking the wrath of the public if they did not pursue Brexit now that the public has spoken.
He would be seriously risking the wrath of those sections of the public whose views he has considered worthless for 40 years.

If May's chief whip considers she cannot deliver Brexit legislation on the particular terms negotiated, there won't be a debate or a vote; she will simply call an election or a referendum to give her a mandate to carry it. Labour won't refuse her a dissolution.
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Karosan
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2nd Reffers are democracy haters.
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