My take on ISIS and why we should STOP PRETENDING

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Yes, please accept my apologies for not pointing out that not all african countries are dangerous when it comes to terrorism. I assumed that would be obvious.

On a side note, what is it with your inflationary - near meaningless- use of "ignorance"? Is that a running gag im missing out on?

No offence.

None taken.

You generalised the Middle East and Africa as being hotbeds for terrorism and where terrorist attacks were expected. I think that the use of such generalisations was ignorant so I stated my opinion. It's not as inflammatory as your post may have been to someone from a Middle Eastern or African country, as it indicates that violence in their countries does not matter, as it is the "norm" (when that very well might not be the case). In other words - their deaths matter less than yours would.

Reply 61

username1044970

Original post by TercioOfParma

The crusades to the middle east were fundamentally defensive against islam

Then why did the Christian crusaders massacre the Jews? Why did the Muslims protect the Jews?

Reply 62

Vav Sartrean Po

I think that more people are passionate about stopping ISIS is because they (UK citizens) are more directly affected, i.e. through victims or allies. Whereas, in Africa famine and starvation should be supported (I agree), but their Government should be tackling it (not ours) - mainly because they aren't helping us back? (controversial, right?)

Reply 63

TercioOfParma

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

When one takes into account the difference between the narrations of historical events and prescriptive commands within the Qur'an, along with explicit verses enjoining peace, as well as the scholarly consensus amongst the mainstream ulema, there really is no adequate room to interpret the texts in that manner. Of course, that won't stop hateful preachers from deliberately interpreting the texts in that manner and then passing on these interpretations to gullible followers, who are especially susceptible to extremism when they've witnessed unjustified, illegal acts of aggression from the "West" towards Muslim-majority countries - acts of aggression on their ethno-religious identity. Every group has its own share of crazies. It's not exclusive to Islam. Hell, in US at least I'd say it's the fanatic Christians who are more of a threat to civilians than Islamists.

Doesn't mean it won't happen that way, people will interpret the texts how they please. I never said it was exclusive to islam, WBC is a thing.

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

Funnily enough, Muslims are required to obey the laws of the land unless the laws prevent them from practising their religion in terms of praying, fasting, etc.

Wouldn't surprise me, christianity has Romans and Islam borrows a decent proportion of the theology. However, it does create a dilemma when the state they're killing their supposed true muslims and attacking the caliph, which one of the hadiths (one in Bukhari) states all muslims should obey.

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

Give it a read then. You'll be surprised at how tolerant it is. But wait a minute, I thought there were verses in the Qur'an commanding Muslims to commit terror attacks and kill non-Muslims indiscriminately?! I thought our entire way of living was under threat due to Islam urging its followers to kill innocent civilians?! Putting aside the fact that no Muslim-majority country imposes the jizya tax on non-Muslims today, and that many scholars argue it is obsolete, don't you think having the very concept of dhimmitude contradicts any pseudo-Islamic justification for killing innocent civilians indiscriminately?

I never said that, I said that they should attack people not of the book (who don't pay Zakat and don't convert to islam) and those who don't pay the Jizya, I stated that earlier in the conversation. Not to some, again, these texts can be read as the reader pleases.

Reply 64

Reformed

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

it varies from person to person, but it almost always derives from these peoples' lives being turned upside down and them resorting to extreme Islam to consolidate their hatred and to concentrate it towards a group of people

by lives turning upside down, I mean family disputes, family/friend deaths, being put in prison, experiencing oppression and brutality from regimes, having your country become war-torn, etc...

Study any of these individual islamist attackers closely, and you'll always see that they are normal people who don't particularly follow Islam who undergo life-changing things which draw them to radicalisation

a lot of people have some of the problems you refer to above - they dont tend to resort to islamic terrorism- this tends to be reserved to only muslims that get radicalised by islamists. so no you cant simply blame circumstances - in fact some islamists came from quite privileged backgrounds, a place at university etc. it is without the case that islamists target existing muslims ( strict or not that strict) with their rhetoric. you dont have to have read the quran twice to fall for pointed propaganda to tap into the basic tribalistic instinct that i suppose all muslims are taught from childhood - that islam must be put on a pedestal above all other faiths, cultures and people, not matter waht the carnage and body count.

Reply 65

TercioOfParma

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

Then why did the Christian crusaders massacre the Jews? Why did the Muslims protect the Jews?

Because that is how they started, the ones against Islam at least (Albagenisans and the Teutonic ones are a different story). The first was started when Pope Urban II declared it in response to Alexis of the Byzantine empire asking for a small force to help him defend against the Turks. The second and third were defending the kingdom of Jerusalem, which was conquered during the first as it was once Christian land. The fourth went and sacked Constantinople because the Venetians told them to in order to pay them to land in Egypt(?) to reconquer that. Subsequent crusades were largely failed expeditions to conquer lands in the middle east and north africa ( Charles V took Tunis in the Early 16th century under a crusade, iirc), which were christian before the Rashidun and Umayyads conquered it.

The reconquista is another example of a crusade too, reconquering the iberian peninsula from the various Islamic states there.

Atrocities happen in most wars, they are unrelated to the intent of the war.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 66

nexttimeigetvpn

Original post by Reformed

a lot of people have these problems and they do the same thing just under no or a different justification, its exactly the same for all murderers, thieves, etc... its just these guys hide behind a justification to live with themselves.

and there are very few of these "islamic terrorists" who have great lives and decide to do these things, they are always driven to it by a series of events, and a desire to help Islam is not one of the factors.

And what is this BS about Muslim kids being taught tribalism? lmao

Reply 67

Reformed

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

a lot of people have these problems and they do the same thing just under no or a different justification, its exactly the same for all murderers, thieves, etc... its just these guys hide behind a justification to live with themselves.and there are very few of these "islamic terrorists" who have great lives and decide to do these things, they are always driven to it by a series of events, and a desire to help Islam is not one of the factors.

actually not true at all - as i said your average non muslim criminal doesnt get involved in islamic extremism - it is effectively an islamic problem not an non muslim one. everyone has a 'justifcation' for why they do things - you have just tried to list a few. but the one common factor in all islamic terrosm cases is in fact that they were all operating under islamist influence. so the solution is simple - cut off the islamist ideology, reduce the problem. however the introduction of the internet makes this very hard to police - there has to be far harsher punishments to disseminating anything remotely islamist in nature - akin to the powers of arrest involved disseminating child pornography etc. it cannot stop the source material coming in form abroad - but it means we could pickup those that download/ share it in the uk.

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

And what is this BS about Muslim kids being taught tribalism? lmao

self promotion of islam and hatred of the 'inferiority of the kuffar' is textbook tribalism - i assume you dont understand the meaning of the term

Reply 68

Gwilym101

Original post by I feel myself

More people die in Africa due to famine and hunger each day but we don't give af about them but as soon as there's a terrorist related attack, killing a dozen people or so, we pretend like we really care.

What is wrong with all you stupid people? Why don't you donate to try and help famine in third world countries and try and help things that really matter rather than posting sh*t about ISIS, of which little can be done about them

Well for starters ISIS have killed thousands 1of people not dozens as well as forcing millions from their homes and they're an easier problem to solve than sorting out the infrastructure, agriculture, education and governments of an entire continent.

Reply 69

nexttimeigetvpn

Original post by Reformed

At the end of a day, Islam isn't forcing these people to kill, they're making the conscious choice to do it. Its a human problem.

Reply 70

remiremi

Original post by I feel myself

Liberals were screaming places like Zimbabwe or Angola were under white european rule, how much "oppression" was taking place with white people owning the majority of the infrastructure, farms and businesses.

Now they are under native African rule, if they are starving it is not our problem. They can sort out their own back yard, mass UN aid is just growing the populations and making things worse.

Reply 71

Reformed

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

At the end of a day, Islam isn't forcing these people to kill, they're making the conscious choice to do it. Its a human problem.

i agree, human beings always have and always will have their failings - but islamist ideology seems to compound and accelerate them. the bloody 1300 year history of islam can illustrate this

Reply 72

Rorschach II

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

we're past the stage where islam is to blame, its quite obviously a contributing factor but by no means is it the main thing which motivates these attacks in the first place, attacking islam is pointless

What? That makes no sense.

You just contradicted yourself; you call "Islam" a contributing factor, yet you think "attacking" Islam is pointless.

That's like saying "lack of exercise" is a contributing factor to heart disease, but tackling a lack of exercise is pointless.

Reply 73

nexttimeigetvpn

Original post by Rorschach II

Attacking Islam is a pointless, perpetual battle

do you think a single Muslim has converted because of someone yelling "religion of peace" constantly?

Reply 74

IronicalMan

That's because they have children they can't support though... As opposed to people going round chopping peoples heads off yelling allah au ackbar, bit different in my opinion.......More people die of disease world wide... Doesn't mean attacks are any less serious.

Reply 75

Galaxie501

Original post by WBZ144

What I ask myself is what a person would think who lived his whole childhood and teen years in a country with frequent terror attacks and then moves to Europe at age 20. Will he/she be more shocked when a terror attack occures in Europe, even though he lived his whole childhood under terror?

Thats unrelated to the previous discussion by the way.

Reply 76

Betelgeuse-

Original post by I feel myself

1. Our governments give away our money to the tune of tens of billions of pounds in aid every single year to these countries (Remeber its OUR money, not governments)

2. On top of this, a huge amount of money and charity is given on top of their tax contributions to these counties and causes.

3. You can care about both

4. Things can be done to suppress the destruction Islam is having on western civilisation

Hope this helps

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 77

Betelgeuse-

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

Where are you plucking your beliefs from? You just fabricated these ideas in your head to fit your narrative, right? Because they could not be more inaccurate

Reply 78

QE2

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

People love to rant about islamic terrorism because it feels good to blame your problems on foreign entities, despite the fact that about 6 times out of 10 it is a domestic Muslim who commits these atrocities lmfao

Islamic terrorism is not blamed on "foreign entities" (wahtever you think they are).

It is blamed on Islamic ideology. And that is the same, whether it is in Islington or Islamabad, Romford or Raqqah, Manchester or Mecca. (Depending on the interpretation, of course)

Reply 79

QE2

Original post by nexttimeigetvpn

So how does this apply to the 9/11 attackers, or 7/7, or the Bali bombing, or the Dhaka attack, or Orlando?

Why do educated, comfortable British, American, Indonesian, Bangladeshi, etc, Muslims hate ordinary Westerners?

And why aren't any other religious or ethnic groups who feel that they are being oppressed or offended, carrying out mass killings against random Westerners? Why mostly Muslims? And why do they often cite Islamic ideology as motivation and justification?

Genuinly interested in your response.
("Not True Muslims", etc is not a legitimate response, BTW)