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Why is gender equality still not a reality in 2016?

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Original post by Sapphire321
If feminists were classed as terrorists then you would have to class virtually all political parties and movements as terrorists. The actions of some individual supporters of a political party or movement do not make the party or movement a terrorist organisation. There was violence and intimidation by Leave supporters both during and after the referendum. Does that mean that everyone who voted Leave is a terrorist? There was violence and intimidation by supporters of the both the Yes campaign and the No campaign in the Scottish referendum. So, is everyone who supported either campaign and voted in the Scottish referendum (84.5% of Scotland) a terrorist? There has been violence and intimidation by supporters of Jeremy Corbyn so is the Labour Party a terrorist group? Theresa May is a feminist so is she a terrorist?

I don't support any form of violence or intimidation so I don't agree with any supporters of any political party or movement being violent. I believe in free speech and I would never behave that way. Unfortunately, some supporters of feminism, just as some supporters of almost all other political parties and movements, do behave in a violent or intimidating way but I would never support their actions. I don't think people should behave like that under any circumstances. I also would like to say again that I do care about men's issues just as much as women's issues.


I would have thought when talking to a feminist, of all people, you wouldn't need to add "some" to everything when talking about a group. I mean most feminists do it all the time when talking about men, then as soon as a man calls them out on it there is an almost knee-jerk response of "well duh, I didn't mean all men".

I do agree that most political, social, and religious groups will have terrorists in their ranks. As a nation, and likely a species, though, we are much more comfortable using the term to refer to someone different from us, rather than facing the fact that a terrorist could be living on our street. It has become a term twisted by the media to mean what it wants, rather than used following its standard definition.
Original post by Sapphire321
I should support the exploitation of women as a feminist?


In what way does "being an escort" = "the exploitation of women". I mean sure, in some cases, but in many countries where it is legal woman purposefully and happily pursue a career in such a business, surely they should have that right?
Original post by Sapphire321
I know and I don't agree with that either. I would support the introduction of more and better paid paternity leave in order to stop that happening just as you've said. If you look through my previous posts on this thread I've already said that several times in response to other people. I believe that both men and women should be given a completely free choice without stereotypes. :smile:


I just find it interesting to hear you talk about lack of equality, when the very points you are arguing have such a negative effect on both sides.
Original post by Sapphire321
I should support the exploitation of women as a feminist? Well, sorry to disappoint you but I definitely don't. Agreeing with having free childcare doesn't mean you support fascism.


Erm, I'd say earning 100 to 200 pound an hour for shagging someone isn't exploitation LMAO
"Society encourages women to do this and men to do that"....who is this imaginative "society" person I'd like to meet em
Original post by ComputerMaths97
Yes it is. You don't even need to do the research to show it too - it's obvious. Course numbers tend towards 50:50 female male, with slightly more males where necessary, yet around 90% of applications are males. Sexism - choosing females to fill a quota purely based on their gender.


So, it was so 'obvious' to you that you didn't bother doing any research.

Page 14: http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf

Maths: 23.8% female applicants, 24.1% female offers. (going down to 17.4% female acceptances after STEP)
Natural Sciences: 40.8% female applicants, 40.6% female offers.
Medicine: 51.9% female applicants, 45.6% female offers.

If you go there expecting your Science course to "tend towards 50:50 female male, with slightly more males where necessary", then you are going to be sorely disappointed.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Forecast
So, it was so 'obvious' to you that you didn't bother doing any research.

Page 14: http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf

Maths: 23.8% female applicants, 24.1% female offers. (going down to 17.4% female acceptances after STEP)
Natural Sciences: 40.8% female applicants, 40.6% female offers.
Medicine: 51.9% female applicants, 45.6% female offers.

If you go there expecting your Science course to "tend towards 50:50 female male, with slightly more males where necessary", then you are going to be sorely disappointed.


54.9% of applications are male, whereas only 52.7% of people actually ending up there are male. That implies a 4.4% female bias. The uni course gap, it's rediculous.

See, we can all select only the peices of data that supports our views, stop being so biased. Every science course bar one you didn't mention, and even some of those you did, have a higher female % of attendees than the percentage of applications that are female.

It's clear there is a bias towards women, but this doesn't actually bother me, what bothers me is that nobody ever mentions it because it's not bias against women so nobody is paid to care.
Original post by ComputerMaths97
54.9% of applications are male, whereas only 52.7% of people actually ending up there are male. That implies a 4.4% female bias. The uni course gap, it's rediculous.


You've just changed your point: you initially said:

Course numbers tend towards 50:50 female male, with slightly more males where necessary, yet around 90% of applications are males


which is clearly untrue no matter which pieces of data you select.

Also, it's spelt 'ridiculous', not 'rediculous'.
Original post by sleepysnooze
right...
so women get called "dear", "love", etc
boys/men are subjected to common claims of paedophilia if they're anywhere around children (hence the recent andrea leadsom comments), criminality/aggression (and hence a much higher likelihood of a prison sentence for a crime), they are expected to do dangerous jobs, they're made to conform to strict body images by the media (encouraged by women) i.e. muscles, height, etc or income, they're expected to physically fight for their female partners, they're expected to pay for their female partners, they're expected to be the bread winners, *by women*, yet when they actually ****ing fulfill this role, women complain about them...I mean, do you really think there's as much pressure upon women to earn maximal amounts like there is upon men with romantic/sexual relationships in mind? women care a lot if a man is poor, or "poor" in the woman's eyes, but men never care - there are studies that confirm this.

the hypocrisy is endless

also, the wage gap: if it's discrimination against women that women don't typically "earn" as much as men, then it's surely discrimination that 95% of the prison population is male? what's the difference? you discount personal life choices in the former, so why not the latter? I mean, do you understand how ridiculous feminism is today given these facts? "feminism" might be one thing in the dictionary, but in practice, it's merely women slamming men for basically nothing, or blaming men for their own personal issues. "page 3"? what about ****ing male infant non-medical circumcision practised in your own country!

PS: I get called "dear" and "love" and I'm a 22 year old man, with a beard. is it sexist? or is it an insult?


Getting called dear and love is in no way the same as being called little princess by a teacher and being asked your clothes size. Seriously? How can you not see that it's creepy haha?
Original post by Sapphire321
What I quoted was the literal dictionary definition of feminism. Yes, obviously the actions of different groups who call themselves feminists is going to affect how people perceive feminism. However, all feminists are NOT radical feminists. You can't hold all feminists responsible for the actions of radical feminists just like you can't hold all leave voters responsible for the actions of Nigel Farage and UKIP. I voted Remain but I still wouldn't do that. I would say I am both a liberal feminist and an egalitarian so I should really define myself as an egalitarian because to me women's equality is a part of total equality.

I would define it as equality of opportunity. If there was actually equality of opportunity, which don't believe there is yet, it should lead on to a more equal outcome that we have at present. I would want it to be based on merit. My point is it currently often isn't. How is it merit based equality if a better qualified woman is turned down for a job and they hire a less well qualified man instead because the woman may have children in the future? And yes that does happen. See my response to ComputerMaths97. So you think women want to do 70% of the housework on average? You think women always want to settle for a lower level career in order to have children when men can have both children and a top level career?

No, the earnings gap is not for the same job and I never said it was. Again, see my response to ComputerMaths97 for an explanation of the earnings gap. There can still be discrimination which leads to women being paid less than men for the same job but that is much less common. It's not always a choice though. When a couple chooses to have children, women most often have the primary responsibility for the housework and childcare which means that they either have to struggle to do it all along with a full time job or they have to go part time or give up their job altogether in order to have more time to do it. This means that women do not have the same opportunities as men to build their careers.

Lad culture is not just "boys behaving as boys are biologically conditioned to do". It's not biological at all; it's completely down to culture and society. Not all men take part in "lad culture". Men have a complete choice whether to behave like that or not. Can you please actually read up about what "lad culture" and "rape culture" are before commenting again. Look up the case of Brock Turner and tell me again that there's no rape culture. In America, 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted while at university. In Britain, 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted while at university. There is a massive issue about what many male students think of as not rape when it is. For example, many men still think it's okay to have sex with a girl who is too drunk to consent to it even though this is rape.

Calling someone "young lady" doesn't have to be sexist but in that instance it was meant in a sexist way and you'll have to trust me on that one because I was there. Jokes about misogyny and rape and the lad culture, particularly around drinking societies and sports societies, at university can be very harmful. It can intimidate female students and cause male students to think that that's normal behaviour.

Women sometimes join in with the sexist jokes because of peer pressure. People say they "can't take a joke" or are too uptight or are no fun to be with if they don't. There are way more "jokes" that are sexist against women than sexist against men though.

There is not proper equality of opportunity. This is the point. Right, so you just think men are naturally better at intellectually challenging jobs than women then?


What relevance does the fact not all are radical have to the point a failure to speak out or ignore radical viewpoints mean they define the movement as much as any other form.

Evidence? When do women get turned down cuz they might have kids, that is in fact illegal so will never be given as the reason even if it is which means you are guessing. Also it's a legitimate concern. You have to pay a worker for a bunch of hours they arent gonna work. Personally I'd put it aside as kids are important but it objectively reduces your bottom line and business is money first.

They have exactly the same opportunity. Marry a guy who is happy to look after the kids and stay at home. If you're with someone career orientated and complain they dont look after kids you chose to have then youre being thick whatever your gender. Also men in your example sacrifice seeing their kids to pay the bills. They love their kids too but realise that in order to keep them happy they need to pay bills first. Some women don't settle for kids, they let their husband look after them or don't have any but if you choose to have kids its ridiculous to complain that you don't have a career. You knew exactly what you were in for, also dad's can't breast feed and don't have as close a bond with the child biologically until it ages a bit so mum's are more inclined to stay home. Unless you want to claim biology is sexist this really is a non sequitur.

Lad culture has been a term co opted by feminists it's original meaning described young adult behaviour in males as a psychological phenomenon. The definition of a culture is a built up practice deriving from a society in paraphrasing thus what I said was legit so the educate yourself argument doesn't hold much water. Those stats are absolute bs according to every metric in existence, not even close to accurate. What if he's drunk? Who raped who? It's a stupid standard unless you mean paralytic at which point the alcohol is irrelevant because the person cannot give consent due to incapacitation. And if we are talking equality how come a woman cannot rape a man under uk law?

Just trust me it was sexist. Solid evidence. You have no idea his intentions you are merely imputing. Jokes do not normalise that's ridiculous. That's the equivalent of saying reporting murders increases the murder rate. Exposure does not equal acceptance, a joke does not make something acceptable it's told in no small part because everyone knows the topic isn't acceptable in reality.

So women are equals of men but are more easily pressured into doing stuff? Internally inconsistent logic there, perhaps they don't see the world as you do and so behave in a different manner. So equality is my problems are worse than yours? Also not really, women just bring them to the forefront more often. Generally speaking a man being a subject of a fat joke will laugh, a woman will get very offended for example.

I think results speak for themselves. If people are good and make a load of money they get promoted. Simple as. Their gender is irrelevant in this process. Anecdotally however women are favoured two to one in stem and still make up a minority so maybe it's a case of personal choice not putting people in positions, for example women make up eighty per cent of care professionals whom aren't very well paid.


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Original post by Sapphire321
Well at least you weren't revising while drunk then haha. I don't think that would have been very productive. Are you at uni? You really should care and if your dad and granddad are alcoholics then it's even more important for you to be careful not to drink too much. Surely you don't want to end up being an alcoholic as well? Please, please, please be careful and safe. Honestly, you will have a much better life if you don't keep drinking like that. :hugs:

Having a career doesn't mean that women can't be good mothers and still spend time with their baby or child though. Okay, you'd have no idea what to do with a baby but do you think all women have universal knowledge on how to look after babies? Both women and men have to learn. Many men are very good with babies and children. It's wrong to assume that all or most women would automatically prefer to earn less money and do most of the childcare and housework. That is simply not true. Fair enough if all of your male relatives do some of the housework but unfortunately this is not always the case. In the average British couple, the woman does 14 hours of housework a week and the man does 6 hours. Women still do the majority even when both parents are working full-time. Learn to cook and clean then. If you earn a huge salary in the future then hire a cleaner if you want but you might not be able to afford it. If you can't cook buy healthy ready meals, don't just drink instead. Please think of your future and your health. I know I don't actually know you but please trust me on this. What I am saying is very good advice.

Kids could get worse meals... Or *radical idea* men could do some of the cooking as well. The woman and the man in a couple could take it in turns if they both have full-time jobs.

In your own words "men and women are just as good at doing a job". If a company just hires a man because a woman is a woman then that is illegal discrimination.


They would prefer to spend time with that they've carried for 9 months though, more than men, and know what to do more as it comes naturally. I know it's bad for my health, I just don't care. Well Men don't want to cook after a full days work, and neither do women, which is my point. There's no healthy ready meals and my mum does cook for me, and I do some times, usually I mess it up though, but if I am on my own I'd rather have more beer lmao. I know it's illegal, but I am explaining why people do it from a logical perspective, men earn more than women because they need to at the end of the day.
Original post by perspectives
Getting called dear and love is in no way the same as being called little princess by a teacher and being asked your clothes size. Seriously? How can you not see that it's creepy haha?


Are you honestly suggesting being asked your clothes size is sexist?


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Forecast
You've just changed your point: you initially said:



which is clearly untrue no matter which pieces of data you select.

Also, it's spelt 'ridiculous', not 'rediculous'.


The second I saw you using a typo as an argument to push your agenda I decided to give up trying to help you lmao
Original post by perspectives
Getting called dear and love is in no way the same as being called little princess by a teacher and being asked your clothes size. Seriously? How can you not see that it's creepy haha?


I got told to light a "glitchy" gas hob the other night because I was a guy and most of the other people around were girls - the person asking said "she needed a man because she didn't want to die", like only the guys ought to die in that line of work or something - isn't "that" kind of creepy "haha"?
Original post by ComputerMaths97
The second I saw you using a typo as an argument to push your agenda I decided to give up trying to help you lmao


The reference to your spelling mistake (I doubt it was a simple 'typo' as such) wasn't my argument, it was just an extra note added onto my post.

And I'm not here to push an agenda, just to correct people who are spewing completely false information.
Reply 295
Original post by Sapphire321
I am a 21 year old woman and I would describe myself as a feminist going by the actual definition of feminism which is: the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes. I am a feminist because I believe that men and women should be equal in society and that neither men nor women should be forced to conform to traditional gender roles NOT because I think that women should be superior to or have more privileges or better rights than men or because I think all men are sexist. I would also say, before people stereotype me, that I am straight, I do not hate men, I do take care of my appearance and I am not in any way the type of radical, extreme feminist that so many people now seem to think that all women who want equal rights are.

Anyway, to get to why I started this thread, I used to believe that men and women were fairly equal in modern society in the UK. However, as I’ve got older I’ve realised more and more that this is just not the case. In the workplace, there is still a 9.4% pay gap on average between men and women for full-time employment and when part-time employment is also included the gap extends to 19.2%. In the private sector specifically the pay gap for even for full-time employees was 17.2%! The TUC analysis of the ONS statistics showed that looking at the highest earners that gap widens even more reaching 54.9% for the top 2% of earners. The “glass ceiling” is even now nowhere near broken. There are many more men than women in top level jobs in politics, law, science, technology, engineering, academia, business… Just looking at politics alone, there is currently a lot in the media about how the next Prime Minister now has to be either Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom therefore it has to be (how shocking!) a woman. I know it’s only the second time in history so that’s a point of interest and it’s obviously great that there was no gender discrimination in this case that prevented us from getting another female Prime Minister but it still shouldn’t be portrayed by the media as such a novel and unusual idea. Even after the 2015 General Election, only 29% of MPs and a third of cabinet ministers are women. Women in politics seem to be judged by the media and society in general as much for how they look as for their policies and often face sexism from both the media and male colleagues. So, if we can’t get proper gender equality in politics which is both very public and obviously instrumental in trying to create equal rights then what hope is there for other professions.

It’s not just in the workplace that women aren’t treated equally either. Everyday sexism is present in schools, universities and in wider society. Worryingly, there is evidence that our generation, if anything, is getting worse. The rise of “Lad Culture” and “Rape Culture” which are particularly prevalent at universities is becoming a serious problem. Women are routinely objectified. Some men (I am definitely not saying all men) and even some women make sexist jokes and comments on a regular basis including joking about rape. Sexist posts and memes (again including jokes about rape) are often shared on social media… Why is it still seen as acceptable to joke that women should “get back to the kitchen” or worse?

As I said, I used to believe that men and women were now equal in the UK when I was still at school but scarily, knowing what I know now looking back on things that happened when I was at school, sexism was obvious there too. I had one male teacher in sixth form who used to patronisingly call all the girls “young lady” but never the boys “young man”. I had a female teacher who said women who worked and had children were irresponsible because they couldn’t be fully committed to their careers. Boys in my class joked that “all women should be prostitutes” but “*name of girl* wouldn’t get any customers”. In my year, boys and even occasionally girls made jokes that were either sexist or involved rape or both. Also, seeing some of the threads on TSR where (some) guys make sexist and misogynistic comments and then call girls “feminazis” if they dispute what’s been said makes me think that sexism certainly hasn’t gone, it hasn’t even decreased by all that much in some ways, it has just adapted into a modern version.

So, why is it that in 2016 women are still not treated as equal to men? And why do people say that feminism is now irrelevant when there is still so much inequality? In a country where women got the vote almost a century ago shouldn’t we have better equality in modern society than this?


You trolling?
Original post by Sapphire321
I am a 21 year old woman and I would describe myself as a feminist going by the actual definition of feminism which is: the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes. I am a feminist because I believe that men and women should be equal in society and that neither men nor women should be forced to conform to traditional gender roles NOT because I think that women should be superior to or have more privileges or better rights than men or because I think all men are sexist. I would also say, before people stereotype me, that I am straight, I do not hate men, I do take care of my appearance and I am not in any way the type of radical, extreme feminist that so many people now seem to think that all women who want equal rights are.

Anyway, to get to why I started this thread, I used to believe that men and women were fairly equal in modern society in the UK. However, as I’ve got older I’ve realised more and more that this is just not the case. In the workplace, there is still a 9.4% pay gap on average between men and women for full-time employment and when part-time employment is also included the gap extends to 19.2%. In the private sector specifically the pay gap for even for full-time employees was 17.2%! The TUC analysis of the ONS statistics showed that looking at the highest earners that gap widens even more reaching 54.9% for the top 2% of earners. The “glass ceiling” is even now nowhere near broken. There are many more men than women in top level jobs in politics, law, science, technology, engineering, academia, business… Just looking at politics alone, there is currently a lot in the media about how the next Prime Minister now has to be either Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom therefore it has to be (how shocking!) a woman. I know it’s only the second time in history so that’s a point of interest and it’s obviously great that there was no gender discrimination in this case that prevented us from getting another female Prime Minister but it still shouldn’t be portrayed by the media as such a novel and unusual idea. Even after the 2015 General Election, only 29% of MPs and a third of cabinet ministers are women. Women in politics seem to be judged by the media and society in general as much for how they look as for their policies and often face sexism from both the media and male colleagues. So, if we can’t get proper gender equality in politics which is both very public and obviously instrumental in trying to create equal rights then what hope is there for other professions.

It’s not just in the workplace that women aren’t treated equally either. Everyday sexism is present in schools, universities and in wider society. Worryingly, there is evidence that our generation, if anything, is getting worse. The rise of “Lad Culture” and “Rape Culture” which are particularly prevalent at universities is becoming a serious problem. Women are routinely objectified. Some men (I am definitely not saying all men) and even some women make sexist jokes and comments on a regular basis including joking about rape. Sexist posts and memes (again including jokes about rape) are often shared on social media… Why is it still seen as acceptable to joke that women should “get back to the kitchen” or worse?

As I said, I used to believe that men and women were now equal in the UK when I was still at school but scarily, knowing what I know now looking back on things that happened when I was at school, sexism was obvious there too. I had one male teacher in sixth form who used to patronisingly call all the girls “young lady” but never the boys “young man”. I had a female teacher who said women who worked and had children were irresponsible because they couldn’t be fully committed to their careers. Boys in my class joked that “all women should be prostitutes” but “*name of girl* wouldn’t get any customers”. In my year, boys and even occasionally girls made jokes that were either sexist or involved rape or both. Also, seeing some of the threads on TSR where (some) guys make sexist and misogynistic comments and then call girls “feminazis” if they dispute what’s been said makes me think that sexism certainly hasn’t gone, it hasn’t even decreased by all that much in some ways, it has just adapted into a modern version.

So, why is it that in 2016 women are still not treated as equal to men? And why do people say that feminism is now irrelevant when there is still so much inequality? In a country where women got the vote almost a century ago shouldn’t we have better equality in modern society than this?


What utter drivel.
'My teacher used to call the girls young lady but never the guys young man'
Is this the pettiness modern feminism has stooped to?
Also I'm sick of western feminists ranting about 'rape culture'; they don't even know what it means. Rape culture would insinuate rape is normalised. Rape is not normalised at all
Original post by upperechelon
What utter drivel.
'My teacher used to call the girls young lady but never the guys young man'
Is this the pettiness modern feminism has stooped to?
Also I'm sick of western feminists ranting about 'rape culture'; they don't even know what it means. Rape culture would insinuate rape is normalised. Rape is not normalised at all


Honestly, I've really had enough now. There is no need to be so rude. I wasn't rude to you so can you please try not to be rude to me. That was just one example, that teacher was sexist in many other more serious ways as well and you probably had to be there and know him and the other examples to understand why he meant that in a sexist way. Anyway, that was a MINOR example of sexism. That was NOT the main point of my post so could you please read both the whole post AND all my other posts on this thread before jumping to conclusions from one sentence. The points I have raised are all correct and valid. I'm not "ranting" and I do know what rape culture means.
Original post by Sapphire321
Honestly, I've really had enough now. There is no need to be so rude. I wasn't rude to you so can you please try not to be rude to me. That was just one example, that teacher was sexist in many other more serious ways as well and you probably had to be there and know him and the other examples to understand why he meant that in a sexist way. Anyway, that was a MINOR example of sexism. That was NOT the main point of my post so could you please read both the whole post AND all my other posts on this thread before jumping to conclusions from one sentence. The points I have raised are all correct and valid. I'm not "ranting" and I do know what rape culture means.


oh no have I triggered you
Reply 299
Original post by upperechelon
oh no have I triggered you


Do you agree there is a lad culture where taking advantage of girls for sex is seen internally as a positive thing? That's rape culture.
It doesn't have to be at the level of an African backwater to be considered one.

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