How moderate are Muslims?

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so the surveys in the OP are not in the millions im guessing?. If so is it not possible they are low/middle or middle class citizens and so are more likely to take are more hard line interpretation. I would love to see the results for upper to middle class Muslims. Also that PEW link you provided shows that Muslims in European and central Asia dont want extreme forms of punishment in accordance with Sharia. So in my opinion its Muslims in poorer middle Eastern countries that want stuff such as the death penalty, and is not reflective of the view that all muslims are extreme.

Just my view.

Reply 21

KingBradly

Original post by Zas_21

Why do you think that the upper and middle classes have not been represented in these polls?

Reply 22

username2313507

Muslims in the world? Not moderate by Western standards.

Muslims in the UK? Mostly moderate by UK standards.

Muslims on TSR? Definitely a few who aren't moderate by UK standards. Their views are more in line with KSA!

Reply 23

KingBradly

Original post by TelAviv

Well, not according to any surveys.

Reply 24

Zas_21

Original post by KingBradly

Why do you think that the upper and middle classes have not been represented in these polls?

Its only a couple of hundred and the PEW dont clarify which group was polled its like me asking Anti trump suporters who should be president, im sure the sample would show that Trump is unpopular until u state the demographic of the polls. (Maybe a bad example but hope you get the point).

Reply 25

KingBradly

Original post by Zas_21

They state the demographics of the polls on the site. They went around various areas in the country to conduct them. I don't see why the would have only asked poor people...

Reply 26

username2763536

A major problem is that a lot of these so called liberals define moderate to mean peace loving or does not support terrorism.The thing is that it doesnt account for the attitudes of muslims.If Islamic culture is largely homophobic then even if muslims are not going around killing gay people then they are still being intolerant.Regressive liberals probably class these muslims as peaceful when in actuality they're anything but and certainly shouldnt be defined as moderate.Its like the nazis.They wouldnt have had such an easy time killing jews if a large amount of anti-semetic sentiment didnt already exist.In the same way if your culture is homophobic or mysogynistic then its actually intolerant even if its not actively harming people.

Another problem is that these liberals seemingly ignore the rest of the world when they say the majority of muslims are peaceful.They look to the west and they see lots of non violent muslims ignoring the fact that in 13 Islamic states you can be executed for being an atheist.Or that ita illegal to be gay in 72 countries a lot of them Islamic states.They say that a women should be free to wear the hijab if she really wants to as its her choice but ignore the fact that for a large percentage of muslim women its no choice at all.I would say that a large amount of muslims arent moderate,they do not have the same values that a modern free european civilisation built on the enlightenment does.Liberals should stop pretending that terror attacks have nothing to do with Islam,they have everything to do with it.Extremism is bred from the attitudes already found within Islamic culture and liberals need to admit there is a problem and stop sticking their heads in the sand.

Reply 27

Sephiroth

I don't consider any Muslim who believes in Sharia law a "moderate".

Reply 28

Zas_21

Original post by KingBradly

They state the demographics of the polls on the site. They went around various areas in the country to conduct them. I don't see why the would have only asked poor people...

On the Poll it only states they surveyed the southern province of Thailand. Doesn't talk about where they went in the other countries. The class of people that were polled is important and the fact thats its only a couple of hundred makes it extremely difficult for me to come the conclusion that Muslims as a whole are not moderate compared to any sort of standard.

Reply 29

KingBradly

Original post by Zas_21

It does actually, if you go onto the website and read the pages before the polls. Also, there are almost no Muslims who live in Northern Thailand. The south is the only Islamic area.

Reply 30

IYGB

Clearly very moderate and peaceful according to this chart.

If the stats provided are correct
36% believe in death for apostasy
46% believe in death for adultery

Reply 31

Betelgeuse-

U know things are real bad when you present statistics from a massively well respected organisation like PEW and a million responses are "NOT TRUE HOW CAN SURVEY 1.6B PPL HERP DERP"

More chance teaching a goat Einsteins relativity than a fruitful discussion with these people

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 32

Marco1

Yeah, but still embracing political correctness, cultural relativism and the failed experiment of multi-culturalism, governments and mainstream media don't want us to know, do they? Islam is nothing to do with moderation. Jihad is a religious duty for all Muslims.

https://carm.org/islamic-muslim-statistics-on-violence-rape-terror-sharia-isis-welfare

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 33

username1738683

Polls are subjective but there is no particular reason to see this one as wild, most Muslims still live in the Islamic world and a mere question on gay rights in Saudi, Qatar, Pakistan or Bangladesh, where there have been many murders of people daring to speak up, is going to be met with pretty much the level of response this poll suggests. Even among Muslims in the West it won't be far off that level, why should it?

Reply 34

QE2

Original post by Bornblue

Was this like when the Sun told us that 800% of Muslims loved ISIS before that turned out to be BS?

Much as I despise The Sun and everything it stands for, that is not what it claimed. Although its headline and article was somewhat misleading (no surprise there!), the data from the survey clearly showed that 20% of Muslims questioned "expressed sympathy with British Muslims going to join ISIS".

Ironically, what you have just done is exactly the same as what you are condemning The Sun for doing.

Reply 35

QE2

Original post by Angry Bird

you can't collect a sample size of a few THOUSAND people and make a chart labelling it as 1.6 BILLION muslims

Erm, yes you can. That's how statistical analysis of properly randomised surveys works.

Funny how no one questions such polls until they show results that they don't agree with.

These are the same polls that Muslims quote when they show that only a small percentage actively support terrorism.

Reply 36

username878267

Original post by QE2

If by 'exactly the same', you mean 'nothing like it' then yes, exactly the same...
Mine was clearly sarcasm, teasing the Sun for their ludicrous headline based on inaccurate and misleading data which has since been rubbished.

Mine was clearly a joke, given I chose the figure '800%'. I really thought you'd have been able to comprehend that.

And 'expressed sympathy' is such a vague term. I can 'express sympathy' for a starving man who steals food, that doesn't mean I think it's right or moral, just that I can understand why it happens. Same with people joining ISIS. A lot of young Muslims feel detatched and isolated and are lured by the powerful appeal of extremists.

That doesn't mean you agree or condone it in the slightest, it means you can understand why it happens...
It means we move beyond our simple approach of labeling people as 'good' or 'evil' and instead seek to understand WHY people are lured towards extremism and how best to counter it.

But that's largely irrelevant given that the poll was flawed in the first place.

Reply 37

QE2

Original post by Bornblue

Your article bore no relation to the truth of the event thet you were reposting. Exactly what you accused The Sun of doing. You claim that it was just a bit of a larf. I'm sure that many a Sun journalist has claimed the same thing.

And 'expressed sympathy' is such a vague term.

Except that wasn't the term used. It was "expressed sympathy with", which means to be in agreement with to some extent.

I can 'express sympathy' for a starving man who steals food, that doesn't mean I think it's right or moral, just that I can understand why it happens.

But the survey did not use "sympathy for", it used "sympathy with". Two different concepts. Also, The Sun accurately reported the results of the poll. It was the possible interpretation of the data that was criticised. Apparently, "Young British Muslims who join fighters in Syria" could equally refer to those going to fight against ISIS - because a handfull of mainly ex-forces Brits could easily be confused with hundreds of young British Muslims. :wink:

But that's largely irrelevant given that the poll was flawed in the first place.

In what way was it flawed. Survation are a well established market research company.

Reply 38

username878267

Original post by QE2

You're being dishonest here and you know you are. I don't see at all what grounds you have for claiming that the Sun were doing it for a joke, if you have such evidence please tell me.

I deliberately chose a figure like 800% to make it clear I was using hyperbole, to take the piss out of the Sun. That was fairly obvious.

Not to blow my own trumpet, but I do know that 800% of Muslims is an illogical statement, hence I chose it as a bit of a joke to poke fun at the Sun's ludicracy.

Except that wasn't the term used. It was "expressed sympathy with", which means to be in agreement with to some extent.

But the survey did not use "sympathy for", it used "sympathy with". Two different concepts.

You're scraping the barrel here and looking for a distinction that does not exist.
Sympathy 'for' and sympathy 'with' are the same bloody thing. I detest the far right, but I can understand why young, poor white males with few opportunities are attracted by the lure of the far right. In that sense I have sympathy for their situation, not that I agree with them, but I can understand why they do it.

Asking someone if they 'express sympathy' is inherently vague and open to interpretation. It is entirely unclear if it means agreement, or just an understanding of why they did it, I personally would take the latter to be the meaning.

In what way was it flawed. Survation are a well established market research company.

The poll asked if Muslims had sympathy for fighters in Syria, not drawing a distinction between ISIS and fighting against ISIS. 14% expressed 'some sympathy', 5% expresed a lot of sympathy.

We have already established that 'sympathy' is an inherently vague and unhelpful term but even so, to portray that as 20% of Muslims 'have sympathy for Jihadis' is incredibly and purposely misleading.

Have a read of this by a person who actually conducted the poll and expresses dismay at both how Survation conducted it and how the Sun deliberately misinterpreted it. http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-conducted-the-muslim-poll-the-sun-jihadi-sympathy

"
Every single person I spoke to for more than five minutes condemned the terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Islam. Some wanted to do the survey primarily in order to show that - as a Muslim - they were disgusted and appalled by what had happened in Paris. These thoughts and feelings were lost in a small set of multiple-choice questions. The idea that that one, badly worded poll can speak for complex and emotional topics such as identity and religion would be funny if it wasn't so damaging."

Then there was the specific question about sympathy for fighters in Syria. (Note: there was no mention of the word 'jihadi' in the script at any point.) One question asked which of the statements the interviewee most agreed with: a) I have a lot of sympathy for young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria, b) I have some sympathy for young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria, or c) I have no sympathy for young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria.

The overwhelming majority of those polled responded to this question with answer c), but some did say they had some sympathy (no one I spoke to said that they had a lot of sympathy). The problem with this question is the word 'sympathy'. What does 'sympathy' mean? Does sympathy mean pity? Or does sympathy mean empathy?