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How moderate are Muslims?

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Reply 40
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
These Muslims seem pretty liberal to me

Men in Iran are wearing hijabs in solidarity with their wives who are forced to cover their hair

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/men-in-iran-are-wearing-hijabs-in-solidarity-with-their-wives-a7160146.html


A tiny, tiny minority of people, in a country which famously has an intellectual, liberal tradition of people who often aren't practicing Muslims.
Original post by KingBradly
A tiny, tiny minority of people, in a country which famously has an intellectual, liberal tradition of people who often aren't practicing Muslims.


Maybe instead of moaning on the interwebs maybe help foster such rebellion within Muslim societies huh?

I don't know why people like yourself have such disdain for people who want liberalism to infect Muslim societies? Why would you not want that? Why would you not want to help foster that?

Also what is your solution to the "Muslim problem"?
(edited 7 years ago)
"They ain't real Muslims, bruv..."

Regressives seem to base their perceptions of Islam and Muslims on their westernised, middle class, 'Muslim Light' neighbours and all the 'nicer' parts of Islamic culture they learn about in school. Maybe they should try living in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan for a while - or even certain parts of Europe. I think their perceptions would change somewhat...
Reply 43
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Maybe instead of moaning on the interwebs maybe help foster such rebellion within Muslim societies huh?

I don't know why people like yourself have such disdain for people who want liberalism to infect Muslim societies? Why would you not want that? Why would you not want to help foster that?

Also what is your solution to the "Muslim problem"?


Weird response. The people who want liberalism in Muslim societies are absolutely the people I support. The Iranians who support making their country a liberal society are at the pinnacle of the fight against fundamentalist Islam. Honestly, usually it's the regressives who like their Muslims to be fundamentalist morons, hence why they do hatchet jobs on people like Maajid Nawaz, so this is a particularly bizarre misfire from you.
Original post by KingBradly
Weird response. The people who want liberalism in Muslim societies are absolutely the people I support. The Iranians who support making their country a liberal society are at the pinnacle of the fight against fundamentalist Islam. Honestly, usually it's the regressives who like their Muslims to be fundamentalist morons, hence why they do hatchet jobs on people like Maajid Nawaz, so this is a particularly bizarre misfire from you.


I think the misunderstanding arises when people like mistake not wanting to see persecution of a hole group of people as being the same as supporting everything that group of people do. If you just say regressive leftist enough you don't have to think about anything or try and work out the best way to foster liberalism in Muslim society.

I appose banning mosques not because I support a patriarchal religion/culture, but because I appose the state being able to dictate such things and I think a narrative of liberals (including Muslims) vs Islamist is better for spreading liberalism than making it Muslims vs the west which just plays into the hands of Islamist propaganda.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 45
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I think the misunderstanding arises when people like mistake like you not wanting to see persecution of a hole group of people as being the same as supporting everything that group of people do. If you just say regressive enough you don't have to think about anything or try and work out the best way to foster liberalism in Muslim society.


No, I just think criticising hundreds of millions of Muslims who support Sharia and think gays should be punished is very important, while regressives routinely deflect this necessary criticism with ridiculous, mindless, baseless platitudes like "religion of peace" and "99% of Muslims are peaceful", or they would rather deflect criticism of the horrific treatment of women in many Muslim communities and societies by uttering some ridiculous whataboutery about "lad culture" or women choosing to take their clothes off for newspapers. Every time regressives do that stuff, every time they say that hijabs are actually "feminist", every time they write hatchet jobs about Maajid Nawaz or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, they counter the progress of all the secularists, liberals, and reformists in countries like Iran or Pakistan.
Reply 46
Original post by KingBradly
No, I just think criticising hundreds of millions of Muslims who support Sharia and think gays should be punished is very important, while regressives routinely deflect this necessary criticism with ridiculous, mindless, baseless platitudes like "religion of peace" and "99% of Muslims are peaceful", or they would rather deflect criticism of the horrific treatment of women in many Muslim communities and societies by uttering some ridiculous whataboutery about "lad culture" or women choosing to take their clothes off for newspapers. Every time regressives do that stuff, every time they say that hijabs are actually "feminist", every time they write hatchet jobs about Maajid Nawaz or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, they counter the progress of all the secularists, liberals, and reformists in countries like Iran or Pakistan.


One of the things I've never understood is why Religion has remained in the 'holy bastion' of things that mustn't be criticised.

Nazism is banned because it promotes hatred against other races and is a dangerous ideology.

We look down on football hooliganism 'culture' and dismiss it as horrid.

Yet whenever the time comes to judge someones religious ideology, or the culture of their country/people, suddenly we must reserve our judgement, otherwise we are racist bigots with intolerant attitudes.

The problem is that we hold people to the same standards we would want to be held to, when the reality is these same people do not have anywhere close to the same standards. The rape/molesting culture of middle-easterners is a perfect example of that.

If you disagree with the core fundamental principles of a religious ideology, then you should be free to voice your concerns and opinions without being labelled a bigot.
Reply 47
Original post by FCB
One of the things I've never understood is why Religion has remained in the 'holy bastion' of things that mustn't be criticised.

Nazism is banned because it promotes hatred against other races and is a dangerous ideology.

We look down on football hooliganism 'culture' and dismiss it as horrid.

Yet whenever the time comes to judge someones religious ideology, or the culture of their country/people, suddenly we must reserve our judgement, otherwise we are racist bigots with intolerant attitudes.

The problem is that we hold people to the same standards we would want to be held to, when the reality is these same people do not have anywhere close to the same standards. The rape/molesting culture of middle-easterners is a perfect example of that.

If you disagree with the core fundamental principles of a religious ideology, then you should be free to voice your concerns and opinions without being labelled a bigot.


There are two types of bigot: one who dislikes other ideas to their own simply because they are different, and one who has reasons for disliking an idea which is different to his own. I really see no harm in the latter.

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