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Why does God allow so much suffering?

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Original post by inhuman
So?

You have no argument do you, that's why suddenly you replied to someone else rather than answering my argument.


If by 'argument' you're referring to that line about quantum mechanics (I've addressed the rest of your comment, notifying you it was sent in error), then I invite you to read the defence of the first premise of my orginal syllogism. If you had read that, you'd know that in quantum mechanics things do not happen uncaused out of nothing. There are all sorts of conditions required (space the most basic of them) for these effects to take place. Thus, no, there are no examples of 'uncaused' effects in quantum mechanics to the best of my knowledge. Yes, I've just seen that RobML is backing me on this point:smile:
Original post by RobML
Actually it has only shown that the connection between cause and effect is not always deterministic.


That would be enough to squash the so-called "premise". But then again I am not a physicist, so maybe I don't understand it fully.
(edited 7 years ago)
Because, he doesn't exist, obviously.
Original post by SunnysideSea
If by 'argument' you're referring to that line about quantum mechanics (I've addressed the rest of your comment, notifying you it was sent in error), then I invite you to read the defence of the first premise of my orginal syllogism. If you had read that, you'd know that in quantum mechanics things do not happen uncaused out of nothing. There are all sorts of conditions required (space the most basic of them) for these effects to take place. Thus, no, there are no examples of 'uncaused' effects in quantum mechanics to the best of my knowledge. Yes, I've just seen that RobML is backing me on this point:smile:


Did he? In another post he told you that you don't know what a cause is...but I guess in the end the intellecutally dishonest will lie and fake as much as they want in order to promote their agenda.

Why is the existence of the universe an effect and not a cause?
Original post by RobML
I think you have a faulty of understanding of what a cause is. A cause isn't a thing, but a specific event or change. I.e. a volcano isn't a specific cause but an eruption is.
A cause either does something or it does not. If it does something, it is to create an effect, for all things that happen are by definition effects.


This is interesting. I'm unsure - since the eruption cannot happen without the volcano, why is the volcano not classed as a cause also?

The dictionary defintion is 'a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition'.

In the same way that an eruption (the change) requires a volcano (the 'thing', the cause of the universe (the change) presumably requires a 'thing' also (God)? Why would the change take place if not for a thing making it do so?
I believe that suffering is a test, and that those who pass the test will have a good afterlife, and those that fail the test will have a bad afterlife. However everyone's test is different, so everyone gets a different mark scheme. As He is the best of judges, he knows how to make the tests and their mark schemes fair for everybody. For example, a homeless man is tested on whether he steals to survive, or if he tries to live honestly. A rich man would be tested on how he spent his wealth. As for God already knowing the outcome of this test, let's say your teacher already knew who was going to pass and fail at the end of the year. You would still think it unfair to reject your application before you even start, right? It's not fair to punish someone for what they would do, only for what they have done.
Reply 146
Original post by SunnysideSea
This is interesting. I'm unsure - since the eruption cannot happen without the volcano, why is the volcano not classed as a cause also?

The dictionary defintion is 'a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition'.

In the same way that an eruption (the change) requires a volcano (the 'thing', the cause of the universe (the change) presumably requires a 'thing' also (God)? Why would the change take place if not for a thing making it do so?


A release of pressure caused the eruption. A fracture in the walls of the volcano caused the release of pressure. A build up of pressure caused a fracture in the walls of the volcano. We can follow this chain of cause and effect for as long as we want, but we'll never reach a cause that is just "the volcano", or reach a cause that is any "thing" for that matter. Things are merely frameworks in which causes occur.
If you actually want a serious answer to the original question, Christian theology makes clear that humans are responsible for their own downfall:
‘The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness’ (Rom 1.18)
Therefore suffering can be seen as punishment that people incurred onto themselves ever since the banishment from Eden:‘God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another’ (Rom 1.24)
Simply speaking, the Christian God is not actually benevolent in the sense that most are considered damned except for the few that he has chosen to save. This is made clear as ‘grace’ is a special thing for the few, otherwise it is not special and cannot be called ‘grace’.‘Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity.’ (Rom 1.28-29)
Suffering for general mankind is due to their rebellion, but for Christians it has different reasons entirely. I cba explaining that part cos that affects the minority.
Because suffering and pleasure are both natural phenomenon and won't change. The universe had no beginning and will have no end, just cycles of life and death with everything in between. Why is it created this way? Because it just is.

That would be the dharmic/Hinduism answer.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by otah007
I believe that suffering is a test, and that those who pass the test will have a good afterlife, and those that fail the test will have a bad afterlife. However everyone's test is different, so everyone gets a different mark scheme. As He is the best of judges, he knows how to make the tests and their mark schemes fair for everybody. For example, a homeless man is tested on whether he steals to survive, or if he tries to live honestly. A rich man would be tested on how he spent his wealth. As for God already knowing the outcome of this test, let's say your teacher already knew who was going to pass and fail at the end of the year. You would still think it unfair to reject your application before you even start, right? It's not fair to punish someone for what they would do, only for what they have done.


So how does he decide "well his test is going to be leukemia aged 14"? How does he judge someone in such a test? You don't know do you because...muh God.

Great argument. Nice talking to you.
Original post by inhuman
That would be enough to squash the so-called "premise". But then again I am not a physicist, so maybe I don't understand it fully.


Not really. Quantum mechanics still follows the laws of causality. The science is probabilistic so we can't fully predict exactly where particles can be at a moment.
lol God is not a Guardian reader
Reply 152
It's better than that; in fact not only would a god have to 'allow' suffering but actually everything that has happened/ever will happen is already known for them to be a omniscient god. yes this very same god one day made the decision to have childhood leukemia be a thing and laws which allow the obscenely wealthy to hide their riches.

the point i'm trying to make is if you believe in a god then you're a bit of a prat
Original post by champ_mc99
Not really. Quantum mechanics still follows the laws of causality. The science is probabilistic so we can't fully predict exactly where particles can be at a moment.


You mean Heisenberg? We know position but not time, or time but not position? Maybe I will ask a colleague, I work with many physicists.
Original post by RobML
A release of pressure caused the eruption. A fracture in the walls of the volcano caused the release of pressure. A build up of pressure caused a fracture in the walls of the volcano. We can follow this chain of cause and effect for as long as we want, but we'll never reach a cause that is just "the volcano", or reach a cause that is any "thing" for that matter. Things are merely frameworks in which causes occur.


So, you're arguing that causes are not things but are changes or events.

But, accepting premise 2, that change or event needs to take place in 'nothing'. A change/event ex nihilo. A change or event, as you say, requires a framework in which to occur. Given that there is literally *nothing* to supply this framework (no space, no time, no atoms etc.) God is the most rational explanation for what the framework was/what created the first framework.

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Original post by SunnysideSea
So, you're arguing that causes are not things but are changes or events.

But, accepting premise 2, that change or event needs to take place in 'nothing'. A change/event ex nihilo. A change or event, as you say, requires a framework in which to occur. Given that there is literally *nothing* to supply this framework (no space, no time, no atoms etc.) God is the most rational explanation for what the framework was/what created the first framework.

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:eek:

God is never the most rational anything for anything...
Original post by inhuman
:eek:

God is never the most rational anything for anything...


That's a nice opinion you have there. Care to substantiate it at all? You could try using reason.

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Original post by SunnysideSea
That's a nice opinion you have there. Care to substantiate it at all? You could try using reason.

Posted from TSR Mobile


Believing in an entity that supposedly created the immensely vast universe with the sole aim of populating an insignificant planet with his chosen species, humans, that cares for us and yet lets us suffer, that we need to pray to and devote our life to else we rot in hell for eternity upon death, without ever revealing himself to us humans is already pretty ****ing stupid enough.

On top of that, you people are the ones who come up with the most ridiculous of excuses for any challenges to this fable, bringing irrational thinking to a whole new level in that process.

So you saying it is the most rational explanation is without words. Well, in the end of course you would think that, you suffer from the God delusion, which means you are incapable of reasoning objectively, as you have demonstrated in this thread. You actually believe that your "reasoning" is without fault and we are just haters.
Original post by the bear
lol God is not a Guardian reader


I assume she takes Cosmos Daily News and The Universe Magazine?
If there are any Gods, they are far too brutal for me to blindly follow them.

It could be argued that suffering is a man made concept, in the sense that we assume 'God' to be unjustly rewarding crooks with wealth for example, however we are the ones who choose to see wealth as a reward.... and having 'bad people' run the world and hence choose the values one which society is run, is the only reason that the wealthy are the 'better off'....

I personally despise the willingness of these 'Gods' to allow such unreasonable suffering to happen, when in full knowledge that humans will never have a complete universal desire to do something (good) about it... it seems like a bit of blame shifting to say, 'God wills it as a test' either of the sufferers, or those witnessing the suffering, as if to suggest that we must let it happen and leave people be just because God chose them to live those experiences. If it's a test to see if we will help, it is a disturbing one - how can you choose a group to undergo hardship with an almost zero guarantee that the non sufferers will solve these problems.....

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