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There is no evidence for God

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Untill man can create life i will continue to refuse atheism. It is the one thing that god can do but man cannot.
Original post by Robby2312
Stars come from hydrogen and helium which were formed in the big bang.It is unknown where matter came from.The big bang merely describes the expansion of the universe from a single point.It doesnt describe anything before that.Where matter comes from.How life began.Whether this is the only universe.All unknown.But thats the job of science.Science is a process to find out some of the answers if we can.Just because you dont know something doesnt mean you can just say god did it.The correct response is to say ok we dont know but lets try and find out.Even if we never find out at least we tried.Some people cant stand not knowing so they say it must be god.But the truth is we dont know what its all about and anyone who says they do is lying.


Why do we say that just because we have come to understand anything that occurs in nature, lightening, earthquakes, DNA, whatever, that God can now be taken out of the equation. Every chemical, force, and process that makes anything possible was created and is sustained by God.
Original post by Danny the Geezer
Well I call it "Easter Bunny syndrome" - as a child you are led to believe that the Easter Bunny/Santa/The Tooth Fairy exists, you have an unshaeable belief that they do and it embeds into your psyche until you are proven otherwise. (Trust me it look me a long time to stop believing Santa exists :cry2:. It's the same with God, except it's very likely that we'll never be proven he doesn't exist so we believe that he does. Blind faith, yes. I'd rather worship something tangible like a tree or something.


The process of maturing tells you there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny. The same maturing process tells many that there is a God even if they've never been encouraged to believe in Him.

You are free to worship anything you like. Every man has been given a measure of faith and he is free to put it where he chooses. You can worship the creation,( a tree), or you can worship the Creator.
Original post by jdizzle12345
I think it is unfair to say that "beliefs" in science are similar to theistic beliefs. It is about a degree of certainty. Yes, I cannot be sure that the keyboard that I am typing on right now exists but there are at least reasons to believe that it does exist, even if those are not conclusive. I will not place my hand on my heart and profess that I have faith that the keyboard exists, only that I have empirical evidence and other compatible experiences that point to the idea that the keyboard exists.

You cannot say that it is reasonable to believe in God just because an atheistic view is just as arbitrary. In any case, the difference that I see between religion and science is that science is willing to admit that it is wrong. It actively attempts to question itself and disprove its own theories. Religion, however, is purely built on dogma that is refuses to change.

In your last point, how can a Christian live consistently with their beliefs when so many of them are contradictory. The fact that God is omnipotent, the existence of evil or that humans have free wills are all contradictory with another belief in the bible.

I am an atheist (or at least a strong agnostic) but I do not believe that my view is that of an obvious contradiction. I do not believe in an objective morality etc.


In your third paragraph you outline what you claim are contradictory beliefs; Gods omnipotence, the existence of evil, etc. with a belief in the Bible. How so?
God is omnipotent, evil exists because God created it.( Revelations), and I do indeed have free will. How is this contradictory with Scripture?
(edited 7 years ago)
Some people still believe in ghosts etc
Maybe they just want to believe that the world is better than it is

Also in poorer countries where people aren't as affluent many believe in God as a way of hope for better life (i.e. heaven/afterlife) which is justification for the hardships they have to face in their current life.

(Not trying to say this is why everyone believes in God or stereotyping theists as poor people)
Original post by oldercon1953
In your third paragraph you outline what you claim are contradictory beliefs; Gods omnipotence, the existence of evil, etc. with a belief in the Bible. How so?
God is omnipotent, evil exists because God created it.( Revelations), and I do indeed have free will. How is this contradictory with Scripture?


Ok,

1) Omnipotence as a concept is self-contradictory. Just think "can God create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?" Whether he can or cannot, leads to a contradiction.

2) Evil is contradictory with other elements of his nature- Omnipotence and omnibenevolence. As Epicurus said:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Essentially, evil is incompatible with the existence of God. Many theologians have attempted to "justify the ways of God to man", but are largely unsuccessful and require many dogmatic Christian beliefs to make them work.

3) You say that you have free will but that is simply an arbitrary belief based on very little evidence.

It is contradictory with the nature of God because if God is the creator of everything and he knows everything then how can he create you with free will. It's like God has written a book where he knows everything that will happen for certain but somehow the characters in the book are free to do anything they want. It's very hard to make sense of it without claiming that "God can just do it... just cus".

Hope this helps. Faith is the only way to believe in God. Unfortunately, there is very little reason involved.
Original post by oldercon1953
When you consider their is an equal amount of evidence to suggest there is no God as there is to convince anyone there is, isn't it just as crazy to dismiss, out of hand, an idea that has been around for a few thousand years despite attempts to eradicate it. It does seem as though we are "hardwired" to see the possibility of a Creator.


Well, the sensible position to hold is to claim that we cannot know. I do not know the exact position of the person that you were replying to, but most sensible atheists would not say that God does not exist for certain. Simply that there is no reason to believe in a God.

However, there is good reason to believe that there is no Christian God as that particular God is self-contradictory making his existence an extreme improbability.

The only good evidence for the Christian God is probably eye-witness testimony of the miracles of Jesus Christ and his resurrection. However, these are obviously very old, there are possible rational explanations and there is also eye-witness testimony from other conflicting religion.
Original post by oldercon1953
The process of maturing tells you there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny. The same maturing process tells many that there is a God even if they've never been encouraged to believe in Him.

You are free to worship anything you like. Every man has been given a measure of faith and he is free to put it where he chooses. You can worship the creation,( a tree), or you can worship the Creator.


Urm? Why do you believe that believing in God is a sign of maturity?

A large reason that many people believe in God is to comfort them. The existence of a God allows for a heaven, to see loved one's again, to have an objective moral standard, to have good people be rewarded etc.

Surely the mature thing to do is to accept the harshness of life without needing a God to cling onto for comfort?
Original post by white.daniel
Untill man can create life i will continue to refuse atheism. It is the one thing that god can do but man cannot.


Can't tell if you're taking the piss or not.
Original post by Pride
At least respect me enough to read what I said and reply to it. I took time to explain his fallacy - you didn't approach my explanation or ask me for clarification of terms like 'begging the question' or 'the scientific method'. I took time to explain the implications of using science as a source of truth. I explained the conversation I had with a friend who also doesn't believe in God. I showed how his reasoning is faulty - science doesn't deal in the supernatural. You are mistaking naturalism (a philosophy that you cannot prove is true) for science. I also pointed to this idea that you have no basis to absolutely trust any of your knowledge - it's circular - faith-based, like the theists you are mocking.

But you won't respond to what I actually said.

Finally, I want to reply to this idea of blind faith. I think one of the things with Christians is that they can live consistently with what they profess to believe. You can't live consistently with your atheistic belief - nobody does (I would point you to morality, love, justice, responsibility for people's actions, validity of the senses and reason as just a few contradictory things you steal from the theistic framework everyday). Indeed, we all rely on (have faith in) things outside of ourselves in order to formulate a worldview. But if you can't live consistently with what you believe, then it's not a convincing worldview.


Why do I need to read your argument when the assumption you make, upon which the argument is based on, is wrong? Everything you said may be true - but that doesn't matter since the assumption is wrong. So if I read it and say wow yes I agree or lulz no that's rubbish, makes no difference.

You talk about respect? How can I respect someone so arrogant as to claim a monopoly on those things? Another reason why people like you trying to justify theism are infuriating. In fact, that is one of the most arrogant things about theists ever.
Original post by inhuman
Why do I need to read your argument when the assumption you make, upon which the argument is based on, is wrong? Everything you said may be true - but that doesn't matter since the assumption is wrong. So if I read it and say wow yes I agree or lulz no that's rubbish, makes no difference.

You talk about respect? How can I respect someone so arrogant as to claim a monopoly on those things? Another reason why people like you trying to justify theism are infuriating. In fact, that is one of the most arrogant things about theists ever.


I am a fellow atheist but I do not understand what you are talking about. If everything that he/she said was true then how can the assumption be wrong?
Original post by oldercon1953
When you consider their is an equal amount of evidence to suggest there is no God as there is to convince anyone there is, isn't it just as crazy to dismiss, out of hand, an idea that has been around for a few thousand years despite attempts to eradicate it. It does seem as though we are "hardwired" to see the possibility of a Creator.


I would call that weakness. The need to believe there is a point to your life.
Original post by jdizzle12345
I am a fellow atheist but I do not understand what you are talking about. If everything that he/she said was true then how can the assumption be wrong?


Assume x>2.

2x>3
100x>50
etc. etc. etc.

But what if x is actually <2 say -5? You cannot use and assumption for a proof that proves the assumption. Nor can you conclude something when you don't know the assumption is true. I see many, many theists use this type of argument. They say "we have these premises, and then this follows". But those aren't premises, those are assumptions.
Original post by inhuman
Assume x>2.

2x>3
100x>50
etc. etc. etc.

But what if x is actually <2 say -5? You cannot use and assumption for a proof that proves the assumption. Nor can you conclude something when you don't know the assumption is true. I see many, many theists use this type of argument. They say "we have these premises, and then this follows". But those aren't premises, those are assumptions.


Oh ok. You were saying their logic was "true" (i.e. the conclusion logically follows from the premises). I was reading a bit too literally into what you said. Because when speaking about logic, when you say that their statement is true then the statement is true regardless of its premises.
Original post by inhuman
I would call that weakness. The need to believe there is a point to your life.


Yes, exactly. Although it will be a scary world once major religions die out since there will be no good reason not to act purely out of our own interests regardless of its "moral status".
Original post by jdizzle12345
Oh ok. You were saying their logic was "true" (i.e. the conclusion logically follows from the premises). I was reading a bit too literally into what you said. Because when speaking about logic, when you say that their statement is true then the statement is true regardless of its premises.


Oh right, I see what you mean. Maybe should have been clearer.
Original post by jdizzle12345
Yes, exactly. Although it will be a scary world once major religions die out since there will be no good reason not to act purely out of our own interests regardless of its "moral status".


Well I would argue even religious people are selfish. Selfishness is human.

If I do something good, do I not do it out of selfishness? Because I love to see the effects of my good deed? Or because I like the feeling of others seeing me as a good person?

And if the only reason stopping many many people currently religious is because they are told to, then a) that's sad b) yes it's scary but c) just tell them differently.
I think atheist who are convinced that no God exists, are as naïve as religious folks. I think we need to redefine what God is. I believe, if there is no God, then, there is only determination and Darwinism that rules the world. That means if you decide something is GOOD or something is BAD, it is only because either you got it taught this way (a lot of people don't question the fact that laws are good, never bad); or it comes from own experiences, through empathy (It hurted me, so I won't do it to you), empathy which, with other things in your brain where developed for the Human kind to survive as a population (Darwin). I believe, if you believe in God, you believe that there is something else, other than these concepts, that tells you what is right and what is wrong.
Original post by inhuman
Well I would argue even religious people are selfish. Selfishness is human.

If I do something good, do I not do it out of selfishness? Because I love to see the effects of my good deed? Or because I like the feeling of others seeing me as a good person?

And if the only reason stopping many many people currently religious is because they are told to, then a) that's sad b) yes it's scary but c) just tell them differently.


I don't agree with you that selfishness is human. Quite the contrary. Humans are able to have empathy. This is how a 4 years old who beets up his friend, learns after he was beaten up himself, that it hurts and that is unfair to do to others. Animals are not like that I think (even though there is still some debates arround this). Animals are selfish.
Original post by inhuman
Well I would argue even religious people are selfish. Selfishness is human.

If I do something good, do I not do it out of selfishness? Because I love to see the effects of my good deed? Or because I like the feeling of others seeing me as a good person?

And if the only reason stopping many many people currently religious is because they are told to, then a) that's sad b) yes it's scary but c) just tell them differently.


I agree that religious people are just as selfish but at least religious people think that if they are bad then they will go to hell and burn forever (or something along those lines). Us atheists, have very little reason to act morally. Perhaps you could see that as an advantage :wink:

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