Muslim family kicked off plane in London after passenger complains

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You should probably read the article first. It didn't say that at all. The OP is making things up. A passenger claimed that one of them was on the phone (which should have been turned off anyway as instructed by the crew) was looking at ISIS propaganda.

It wasn't ISIS propaganda, it was the Qur'an online. Not everything written in Arabic translates to Islamic terror

Reply 121

Nosler

69 Christians killed in Pakistan 3 months ago. I know it's obviously not as bad as getting thrown off a plane.

"In Pakistan, Taliban's Easter bombing targets, kills scores of Christians"

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/27/asia/pakistan-lahore-deadly-blast/

Reply 122

alevelstresss

Original post by Good bloke

Much as I dislike Christianity (and all religions), you are wrong. The key underlying tenets of Christianity are Love thy neighbour as thyself and Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. There is absolutely nothing about punishment for apostasy, persecuting those with different superstitious beliefs, keeping women under the thumb of men, or turning the world into a Christian-ruled hellhole.

Yet Christians did in mass persecute members of other religions in the past. It should be clear that regardless of a religion and its views, many religions would pursue violence, conquest and persecution if it were in the religious government's interests. Additionally, Islam has similar beliefs which aren't so violent, such as welcoming guests and 'if one man dies, the whole of humanity dies as well'.

Reply 123

BioStudentx

Original post by BasicMistake

The article also says it was a digital copy of the Koran. Unless it also had pictures of the ISIS flag and/or photos of guys waving AK-47s, Vividly clear is correct.

1) The crew members only reacted to what was reported, hardly their fault.
2) Believe it or not, ISIS propaganda also do take verses out of the Qur'an.
3) Should have turned your phone off...
4) How do you expect a non-muslim to read arabic?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 124

username1044970

Original post by Nosler

Why don't we look at how Christians are treated in Islamic countries?"Muslims mob stabs Christian to death in Egypt

Bishop Macarious of the southern Minya governorate says the group attacked the families of two priests with knives and batons in the village of Tahna al-Gabal late on Sunday. Fam Khalaf, 27, was killed and the father of one of the priests was wounded.

Christians make up 10% of Egypt's mostly Muslim population. Sectarian violence occasionally erupts, mainly in rural communities in the south. Islamic extremists have also targeted Christians."

http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/muslims-mob-stabs-christian-to-death-in-egypt-20160718

What's worse? Getting killed or getting removed from a plane? Europeans really have to wake up and smell the coffee.

Flying-carpet fallacy, whataboutism. If you're going to bring in irrelevant examples of violence from the 3rd world, why omit Christian terrorists killing Muslims in Central African Republic, leading to what Amnesty International describes as causing a Muslim exodus of historic proportions?

Are you saying Muslims in Europe should be removed from planes on the basis of sectarian and communal violence in Egypt? Are you this stupid?

Are you baconandsauce?

Reply 125

Nosler

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

How many Muslims have been killed in recent months for religious reasons? Two? In both cases they have been killed by other Muslims...

I think a pattern is starting to emerge.

Reply 126

username1044970

Original post by Nosler

Stick to the subject and the continent old chum. No one is going to entertain your flying carpet fallacies.

Reply 127

BioStudentx

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

I think you might have missed his argument. He's saying that minorities getting persecuted in Muslim majority countries (e.g. Iran, Iraq, Syria - and I can confirm this as an Iranian) seems to go unnoticed. This is not justifying the persecution of Muslims, it just seems rather hypocritical that it gets no attention.

And please, don't over dramatise the situation. It was an honest mistake. The crew only reacted to what was reported to them. The person didn't follow the crews instructions by turning off his phone, another passenger realises this and looks over and reads arabic writing (causing panic). Always better to be safe than sorry. It's not like the Muslims life was changed drastically - they let him back on the flight... And this sort of stuff hardly ever happens - Muslims travel every day on planes and now because of this once incident we're going to see the constant victim card being played.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 128

QE2

Original post by alevelstresss

Yeah you also have no reason to fear national socialists. Being afraid of the Nazi regime is justified though, because many of them actively supported Hitler who actively ordered the gassing of millions of Jews, who conquered territory which was redistributed through internationally agreed treaties, who had secret police ordered to take any opponents of the Nazis into custody. Islam is far from this. You will find parts of it reminiscent of the same regime in ISIS-held territory, and you will see harsh punishments for what we would see as minor crimes.

So what you are saying is that we should not have a problem with all Nazis or Muslims, only the ones who take the ideology seriously - whether this is actually implementing the barbarity and oppression, or just condoning it.
Which is what I've been saying all along.
Welcome to the club.

What's more confusing is that anyone who has a respectful view of Islam

Why on earth would any rational, enlightened person have"respect" for Islam, as an ideology?

and Muslims

How can you "respect" a large and disparate group of 1.6 billion, when it contains widely differing behaviour. Both Anjem Choudary and Maajid Nawaz are Muslims. I despise one but have a bit of a man-crush on the other, yet according to you, I should respect them both simply because they are Muslims.
Utter nonsense.

is instantly labelled as left wing.

Thats because the vast majority od non-Muslim apologists are left-wing. But that doesn't mean all left-wingers are apologists for Islam. I am a Labour party member and Corbyn voter. I was Green before he became leader because they were too right wing under Milliband. One of the reasons I am so anti-Islam is that it is essentially an oppressive, discriminatory, right-wing ideology

Generally I've found its something that people like you chuck into the pot because you are aware that your argument has no substance, so you think its an insult or somehow destabilises our argument to be labelled as 'left wing'. LOL

I also think that it is an irrelevance, but it is also a truism.

Reply 129

BasicMistake

Original post by BioStudentx

1) I don't think anyone here is blaming the crew members
2) I know but the Quran in and of itself is not is not terrorist material. Also, as you pointed out, people can't read Arabic and therefore they wouldn't have known it was the Quran anyway. It could have been Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone but the other passenger would have reported them anyway, just because it was in Arabic.
3) Could have been on flight mode, we don't know
4) I don't but this just shows how irrational the behaviour is. Arabic text does not mean terrorism.

Reply 130

champ_mc99

But do we all agree the passenger was a bit of a bimbo?

"Arabic writing = ISIS propaganda"

Reply 131

username1044970

Original post by Nosler

How many Muslims have been killed in recent months for religious reasons? Two? In both cases they have been killed by other Muslims...

I think a pattern is starting to emerge.

More whataboutism. But why the arbitrary limit of 2 months? Christians in Egypt aren't being driven out of Egypt, while the persecution of Muslims in CAR persists.

Well done for a) completely ignoring my point and persisting with your fallacious reasoning and b) devaluing Muslim lives and their struggles in a Christian country in Africa.

If you want to carry on with this stupid line of logic, you shouldn't really complain about the number of Europeans killed in Islamist attacks, since the number of Muslims that have been killed far outweighs that number.

Reply 132

username1044970

Original post by BioStudentx

And please, don't over dramatise the situation. It was an honest mistake. The crew only reacted to what was reported to them. The person didn't follow the crews instructions by turning off his phone, another passenger realises this and looks over and reads arabic writing (causing panic).

If you don't see an issue with the normalisation of "Arabic writing = ISIS" attitudes, then I'm afraid there's not much to be discussed.

Always better to be safe than sorry.

Let's just ban all Muslims from travelling via planes. Better safe than sorry!

It's not like the Muslims life was changed drastically - they let him back on the flight... And this sort of stuff hardly ever happens - Muslims travel every day on planes and now because of this once incident we're going to see the constant victim card being played.

One thread on the topic highlighting ignorant, hysterical xenophobic attitudes does not constitute constant victim card being played.

Reply 133

Emperor Trajan

Original post by alevelstresss

Not unable, its just I can't see the point when you can easily google it yourself to see that the Quran says something alone the lines of "strike the heads off non-believers" or implies something to that effect

Yes I'm aware. But I would like to know how you've arrived at the statements you've made (a Muslim would likely contend). Did you take into consideration context and clarification by a well reputed tafsir or a Muslim scholar on the relevance of such statements as "behead non-believers" in light of the 21st century?

and you can teach a Muslim that by educating them on the law in our society, but there are other societies to ours, in some places, that stuff is what the government practices.

I'm not sure I understood what you've said. I was expecting a little more, I would have probably ask for you to start a thread to convince such Muslims who insist on Islam being perfect and timeless, to being incorrect and time restricted, so as to prevent holding what you would view as reprehensible beliefs.

I only quote and question you, as (you might already be aware of) come off largely as an apologist for Islam - downplaying the role it performs when you have Muslims (and some Muslim majority countries) holding such views as the persecution of apostates, homosexuals, stoning those convicted of extramarital sex, slavery, FGM etc) views I'm assuming you likely do not hold.

But when someone points out and criticises such beliefs (Held by many Muslims, both explicitly and implicitly) and the role Islamic beliefs play in Muslim related violence, hatred and discrimination, individuals like yourself would be reluctant to oppose such beliefs and stifle any criticism via the contentious word of "Islamophobia" and implicitly side with Islamists, due to not wanting to offend Muslims - who all vary in their religiosity and interpretations.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 134

Qaz25

Lol.

You know TSR has got a seriously extreme anti-Islam problem when even the top rated Daily Mail comments are supportive of the Muslim trio interrogated because of a false allegation. Whilst this thread is generally supportive of the passenger who fabricated the allegation :rofl:

Someone mentioned earlier that a fear of Islam is rational.

Yes, because fearing the religion followed by 1 billion people, of which less than 1% have violent tendencies really is rational.... not!

Let's face it, if we go by those statistics, we should be fearful about every white man because you never know, he could be a rapist. Especially women, as it was revealed not so long ago that quite a large proportion of women have faced sexual harassment in the workplace of all places :afraid:

This isn't the first incident of this nature, and nor do I think it will be the last. People enjoy living in fear of the most unlikely events whilst driving their cars/smoking cigarettes/drinking alcohol <--- all of which are statistically more likely to kill you. But yeh, the media always talks about Islamist terrorism. So that must be the most likely way we're all going to die :gasp:

/sarcasm

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 135

BioStudentx

Original post by BasicMistake

1) Then we're dealing with individual bigotry and not like others have pointed out, airlines persecuting Muslims. I'm 100% confident they would have done the same with any other race if they had received the same report.

And as for the rest of your points, I think the guy should have acted differently. Personally, I come from a Muslim family. Whenever we are about to travel via car my mum says a Muslim prayer, "bismillah...". However, my Mum has enough personal awareness to know that on public transport this is wrong and she regulates herself. With everything going on in the news with ISIS, she knows people are tense and scared.

I wasn't there on the plane so I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 136

BioStudentx

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

I haven't missed his argument at all. In fact I'm pretty sure he'd use the same sort of fallacious whataboutism in the form of "well these Christians were killed by Muslims in this country" if Muslims were targeted in hate crimes.

It's not hypocritical at all. As Europeans, we're more inclined to pay attention to events that happen close to us.

If you don't see an issue with the normalisation of "Arabic writing = ISIS" attitudes, then I'm afraid there's not much to be discussed.

Let's just ban all Muslims from travelling via planes. Better safe than sorry!

One thread on the topic highlighting ignorant, hysterical xenophobic attitudes does not constitute constant victim card being played.

Only an idiot would associate arabic writing to terrorism. I'm fairly certain there were other factors that led him to this conclusion.

The "better to be safe than sorry" was regarding how the crew reacted. You can't ignore a complaint like that.

Reply 137

Galaxie501

Original post by BasicMistake

It's called environmental determinism and historians hate the very idea of it.

Yes and No. Undoubtedly the environment has effects on human development. Saying otherwise would be absolutely insane.

However, it is way too easy to blame the failure and success of certain societies on the environment, when in reality it is only a small fraction of the determinants. Its simple to say "oh, its not their fault, its just their bad geography".

Reply 138

username1044970

Original post by BioStudentx

I'm assuming those other factors would probably be their brown skin colour, style of clothing, and perhaps the use of Arabic in spoken conversation - all characteristics racialised to fit the modern image of terrorists.

The simpleton who reported the family would probably have a heart attack if the above characteristics were combined with a random use of "Allah" in speech.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 139

oldercon1953

Original post by Dez

This is basically the definition of an irrational fear though, that is, one that doesn't have a factual basis behind it. Fear of flying in general is irrational, as it is in fact far safer than almost any other means of transport. Fear of spiders is irrational (at least in the UK), since very few arachnids are actually harmful to humans. Yet people still have these fears, and in this case it almost lead to an innocent man being arrested. That's unfortunate, in my view. The world would be a better place if people didn't fear terrorists, after all, fear is exactly what the goal of terrorism is.

Also a quick note, I have not once used the words "evil" or "Islamaphobic" in this thread, so please don't try and shove words into my mouth (or keyboard).

It is not an irrational fear for a human being, who can't fly without the aid of technology, to fear being 30,000 ft in the air in an airplane that could drop out of the sky for any number of reasons, (and they do). Even if there had never been a single death attributed to air travel, a fear of flying is perfectly normal. To not fear it is to have more faith in machines than I have.