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I don't know how anyone can eat meat :-(

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Reply 140
How vulgar of you.
Original post by 0range
It's a myth that you can only get protein from meat, you can get it from beans, lentils, vegetables, etc.

Also if you're skinny and want to grow then you don't really need an insane amount of protein, you need a steady amount which prob wont exceed 100g. What you really need is calories.


Meh, that was just my reason at the time. Besides, I've been trying for the last 19 years to stop being skinny, and it ain't been happening. I'm doomed to be a beanpole for the rest of my life, might as well accept it.

On the plus side, if I ever get chased by a fat person I might be able to squeeze through a tiny gap and escape and turn back to laugh at them getting stuck.
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
H
You mentioned prices, today in asda and I'm only going by what I saw today, my carton of rice milk was £1.29 and a carton of semi-skimmed 6pt milk was £1.30. Also Flora original is £1.70 and the vegan alternative flora is also £1.70. The prices really don't vary, I was surprised by that also because I assumed vegan things cost a lot more, they actually do not.


That's because you bought a carton (probably containing 1L and not a bottle). You can go to Iceland and get 6 pints for £1.29. Butter is actually a good option for avoiding animal product.
Original post by Josb
You don't kill animals by drinking milk or eating eggs. I don't see how they are related to the slaughterhouses that disgust you. You may not be able to call yourself a "true vegan" if you eat them, but is it really the goal?


Because most cows are milked in factories and most chickens are made to produce an overwhelming amount of eggs.

Also ofcourse there are battery chickens, I may buy only free range but how to I know the eggs in my chocolate cake didn't come from a factory chicken farm?
I think the truth of the matter is veganism isn't really going to become a trend or anything at the moment, most likely certainly not in our lifetimes anyways. A possible reason for this it that to be honest, there are bigger issues that require our attention, like poverty for instance. OP, do you truly feel as if veganism is the biggest crisis out there at the moment, if not shouldn't you be trying to raise awareness for something else?
Reply 145
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
Because most cows are milked in factories and most chickens are made to produce an overwhelming amount of eggs.

Also ofcourse there are battery chickens, I may buy only free range but how to I know the eggs in my chocolate cake didn't come from a factory chicken farm?

Bake the cake yourself. :dontknow:
Reply 146
Original post by Prince_fancybum
The "we evolved eating meat" argument is so invalid. Eating meat thousands of years ago was necessary for survival, nowadays it's simply due to greed and because it's the social norm. Meat production, whilst causing the suffering of billions of animals is also crippling the planet and contributing to world hunger, if the whole world adopted a western diet we would need a planet three times the size of earth to facilitate the production of meat necessary to feed everyone.

The main problem I see is not about the western diet, but the huge amount of food that we waste.

Apparently, one third of the food produced in the world is not eaten: http://www.fao.org/docrep/014/mb060e/mb060e00.pdf
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 147
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
Because most cows are milked in factories and most chickens are made to produce an overwhelming amount of eggs.

Also ofcourse there are battery chickens, I may buy only free range but how to I know the eggs in my chocolate cake didn't come from a factory chicken farm?


So because you don't like the reality you'll cut off your nose to spite your face? The cows have already been bred to produce more milk and are and will continue to be treatedas such. Throwing a tantrum over it will hardly help.
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes

A life is a life.


Is an insect's life as valuable as a human?

I don't think life is innately valuable, speciesism is definitely the solution to the ethical dilemma of eating meat.
Reply 149
Original post by Napp
So because you don't like the reality you'll cut off your nose to spite your face? The cows have already been bred to produce more milk and are and will continue to be treatedas such. Throwing a tantrum over it will hardly help.


Is voluntary self-sacrifice for the sake of the wellbeing of others seen as a bad thing these days or something?
People have principles, get over it.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by IWMTom
We evolved by eating meat, and it's only little attention seekers like yourself who've come along recently and made the whole vegetarian/vegan bull**** rife. No offence to you, I respect your decision, but I personally couldn't care less about the animal - I like meat, I will eat meat.


/thread

We're done here folks.
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
attempted vegan but failed many times due to not being able to resist a cup of tea or coffee


Tea and coffee are not vegan?
Reply 152
Original post by BirdIsWord
/thread

We're done here folks.


Thanks wise boss man, glad to see you have all that wrapped up

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Josb
You don't kill animals by drinking milk or eating eggs. I don't see how they are related to the slaughterhouses that disgust you. You may not be able to call yourself a "true vegan" if you eat them, but is it really the goal?

Male calves are slaughtered extremely young as they don't produce milk, the females then are milked up to 70 litres a day, often having infected udders that go untreated. Egg production is much worse, at 1 day old all the male chicks are crushed alive as it's the cheapest way to kill them. Battery farming is illegal in EU but caged hens aren't, and I can tell you that the state they're kept in is almost as terrible, I've got a few ex-caged hens and when they arrived they were all bald and dehydrated, with absolutely no muscle mass whatsoever. They're kept for 18 months whilst they're at peak laying ability and then go for slaughter. Free range hens aren't roaming merely in fields either but are kept in slightly better conditions, but are still subject to torture like beak cutting and are still killed at 18 months. So you most definitely are supporting their killing by consuming eggs and diary.
[QUOTE=0range;67251742]Honestly if you've read any of my posts in this thread you'll see that I've not had a dig at anyone. Just don't believe that's the way to go. Instead you'll see a lot of people who eat meat take the piss out of the OP. It's funny when people talk about militant vegans being horrible and trying to convert them but I see a lot more of people who eat meat criticising the vegan lifestyle, and just taking the piss.

I'm getting a bit off track though, I was simply replying to someone who was outraged by the idea that the meat industry is comparable to slavery. If you cannot come to this conclusion by simply comparing the two, then why not listen to Peter Singer? He's arguably the world greatest living moral philosopher. He completely agrees with the idea that the meat industry is comparable to slavery.

There is ridicule on both sides, it is a highly contentious issue.

As long as people don't tell me after 0.3 seconds of meeting them that they are vegan/vegetarian then that's fine.

We didn't breed humans with the sole intention of enslaving them (some will claim it did happen but it is not comparable to the meat industry in that sense).

Again, it boils down to your view of anthropocentrism.

[QUOTE=dairychocolate;67251954]Hypothetical question: if it became viable to quit meat consumption while still easily meeting even the most demanding nutritional requirements (ie. due to fungal proteins and decent meat substitutes with the appropriate amounts of macro and micronutrients), would you keep eating meat? At that point, producing a bunch of sentient creatures for the sole purpose of slaughtering them wouldn't be necessary for anything more than enjoyment.

Yeah, it seems that any such discussion brings up passive-aggressive contributions from some edgy meat eaters. I struggle to find like-minded, level-headed meat eaters who are willing to look at the situation without bias.


If the substitute food was also nice to eat then yes.

If not, then i'd probably eat less meat.
I'm envisaging a Whey protein shakes type scenario but scaled up to 'real food'. Vegans wouldn't like that though.

I love milk, like 2 pints+ a day. Frequently more but as an average or even minimum, i'd say 2 pints.
Just love the taste of whole milk. So i'd never be vegan as i really like the taste of milk so replacing a substiture for me would be almost impossible.


As much as you pose and interesting question to me, i don't really like to deal in hypotheticals/fantasyland.

I'd rather we use science to fight disease and look for cures etc.

Creating a proper meat substitute is miles away.


Nobody can look at situation without bias, particularly if one is in one camp or another.
I am biased but i try to be as neutral as possible
Original post by beccac94
I'm sorry but you cant say that fish don't suffer. Most fish are gutted alive or suffocate to death. Fishing also has massive environmental impacts whether through farming, netting etc. But as I said in a previous post no industry perfect and improvements could be made everywhere. For example the rainforest is being cut down to grow oil for Galaxy chocolate.
Also research into whether vegetarians live longer is currently uncertain and shows more research is definitely needed.



Okay, so slitting the throat of animals is the most effective way of killing sheep, this cannot be denied as I said in my other post the blood vessels in sheep means its rendered dead almost instantly. This is not the most effective way of killing cattle and cattle killed in this way have a slow and painful death and their vessels run differently to a sheep. Stunning is used because the animal is rendered unconcious instantly so the animal cannot feel any pain what so ever and doesn't know what is happening, you question why its legal. Its legal because its the least cruel method of killing the animal as they cannot feel anything. I refuse to buy non-stunned meat because of this.


Yes but what I mean is that they aren't intelligable creatures, they can't feel pain so if you compare a fish to a pig- which one is most likely to suffer? Obviously a pig- which are highly intelligable animals. Don't you think the ways on-land animals are raised and then killed, are much more extreme. Wow, you're comparing a fish- which cannot recognise pain- against animals like pigs which are highly intelligable creatures and are more likely to sense that they are going to die..well done you!

If you checked the Rainforest Alliance website then you would notice that they have ethical values...so which is better:
MacDonalds who say they care about the environment but are continuing to cut down the rainforest to make way for cattle farming or..
Rainforest Alliance who not only help their farmers to understand about climate change but also:
-support farmers and communities (alot better than MacDonalds minimum wage)
-protect land and waterways
-improve incomes

Now here are the benefits of becoming a vegetarian- this relates to health:
-Low Blood Pressure
-Lower Risk of Death -"a 2013 study of more than 70,000 people found that vegetarians had a 12% lower risk of death compared with non-vegetarians".
-Better Moods
-Less chance of heart disease - Another 2013 study of 44,000 people reported that vegetarians were 32% less likely to develop ischemic heart disease.
-Less likely to be overweight -Research shows that vegetarians tend to be leaner than their meat-eating counterparts, and that they also tend to have lower cholesterol and body mass index (BMI). Some data suggests that a vegetarian diet can help with weight loss and be better for maintaining a healthy weight over time.
-Lower risk of diabetes.
Original post by 0range
Meat*

Why do you think that? I'm just curious, but wouldn't taking the life of something that didn't want to die go against your morals?
It's totally fine if it doesn't, which is understandable because everyone has their own moral values :smile:


No. I don't place the same value on an animal's life as I do on a human's life, due to moral agency and personhood. That's the line I draw.

There's the argument to be made that this is speciesist. But those who make the speciesist argument don't tend to place the same value on the life of fish, or insects, or bacteria, that they do on the lives of farm animals. So that's not internally consistent from the get-go.

Original post by 9091student
wtf thats like saying murder is justifiable just as long as you do it in a 'humane' way, never knew killing someone nicely makes all the difference

Yeah. It does. If I kill an animal in a way that it inflicts excess suffering, that's immoral. If I quickly kill an animal in a painless, minimally distressing way, that's different.
[QUOTE=Prince_fancybum;67259948]Male calves are slaughtered extremely young as they don't produce milk, the females then are milked up to 70 litres a day, often having infected udders that go untreated. Egg production is much worse, at 1 day old all the male chicks are crushed alive as it's the cheapest way to kill them. Battery farming is illegal in EU but caged hens aren't, and I can tell you that the state they're kept in is almost as terrible, I've got a few ex-caged hens and when they arrived they were all bald and dehydrated, with absolutely no muscle mass whatsoever. They're kept for 18 months whilst they're at peak laying ability and then go for slaughter. Free range hens aren't roaming merely in fields either but are kept in slightly better conditions, but are still subject to torture like beak cutting and are still killed at 18 months. So you most definitely are supporting their killing by consuming eggs and diary.

None of the cows around hear are treated like that.
We have great grazing and cows roam the fields with 2 milkings a day (4am and 4pm). They are in great condition.

I've known of farmers getting reported if they keep their cattle in a poor state.

Hens are free range around here too (local honesty boxes etc) admittedly i can't totally speak for the supermarket ones but i don't like eggs (very mildly allergic) but i eat chocolate etc so yeah i do eat eggs.

Your post describes Spanish or Eastern European animal conditions.

It does not resemble the farms i've seen and worked on around these parts.

Scaremongering.
Original post by Moira O' Hara1
Yes but what I mean is that they aren't intelligable creatures, they can't feel pain so if you compare a fish to a pig- which one is most likely to suffer? Obviously a pig- which are highly intelligable animals. Don't you think the ways on-land animals are raised and then killed, are much more extreme. Wow, you're comparing a fish- which cannot recognise pain- against animals like pigs which are highly intelligable creatures and are more likely to sense that they are going to die..well done you!

If you checked the Rainforest Alliance website then you would notice that they have ethical values...so which is better:
MacDonalds who say they care about the environment but are continuing to cut down the rainforest to make way for cattle farming or..
Rainforest Alliance who not only help their farmers to understand about climate change but also:
-support farmers and communities (alot better than MacDonalds minimum wage)
-protect land and waterways
-improve incomes

Now here are the benefits of becoming a vegetarian- this relates to health:
-Low Blood Pressure
-Lower Risk of Death -"a 2013 study of more than 70,000 people found that vegetarians had a 12% lower risk of death compared with non-vegetarians".
-Better Moods
-Less chance of heart disease - Another 2013 study of 44,000 people reported that vegetarians were 32% less likely to develop ischemic heart disease.
-Less likely to be overweight -Research shows that vegetarians tend to be leaner than their meat-eating counterparts, and that they also tend to have lower cholesterol and body mass index (BMI). Some data suggests that a vegetarian diet can help with weight loss and be better for maintaining a healthy weight over time.
-Lower risk of diabetes.



Top paragraph - Goes back to views on anthropocentrism.
See Hype en Ecosse's post. He makes the point well.

2nd para - Lower weight does all of those things.

So if vegitarians are slimmer then they get all of those health benefits.

Meat eaters can also be slim.

Secondly, cancer is going to come along and probably take me out or have a good crack before i'm 60 so whatever.

I'll workout, i'll run/cycle all my life and get bloods checked regularly. I'll eat meat
Original post by Unistudent77
Thanks!

It is. Worse was the stench of burning flesh...

Ultimately, we would not get sufficient protein to be strong and fully functioning 'naturally'.

Yes, nowadays you can get some protein in through Whey and nuts (other pulses etc) but it is pretty tough work.
Easier just eating meat and downing milk (if you are going to be very against meat and all about 'ethics' then really you should be vegan as milking cows is 'unethical':wink:

Probs should never take your pets to the vet as they'll be all scared and upset...


This 'natural' chat really just can't be applied to modern life.

I think it boils down to your views on anthropocentrism.

Each to their own. Meat eating will never end, we are in huge majority but i respect those who do not eat meat.

Although, if i were being cynical then i'd suggest that those who are vegitarian/vegan have less first hand experience with animals than those who do eat meat (excluding those who live in India and due to religious reasons are vegitarian - they view the cow as sacred etc)


Lambs are so fluffy too. Horrible way to go..

*Vegetarian :tongue: And yes I'd rather starve and eat vegemite (which I hate) than eat beef because cows are sacred and I'm against meat consumption anyway. But it's irritating that you get militant veggies who make meat eaters feel guilty about eating meat. I went out with an vegan mate a while back and I ordered a veggie burger with mayo. She kept telling me that milk was murder. I can't tell you how annoying it was.

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