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Five men arrested by West Midlands anti-terror police

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Original post by Good bloke
It's a good thing that religion and politics are never combined into a single ideology then, isn't it?

Oh! Wait, I've just seen that they were following an ideology that combines both politics and religion. It is, apparently, called Islam.


Political aims and religious aims are different, and this went right over your head.

Political aims include:
- wanting to stop airstrikes (like the Bataclan attackers wanted)
- wanting to cripple the country's tourism industry (like Rezgui and the Tunisia museum attackers)
- revenge for airstrikes against terrorist groups
- wanting to scare the country's population into submission
- wanting to legitimise an attack by Islamic State (like Man Haron Monis wanted)

The only singular religious aim that I can think of is the Charlie Hebdo attack, but the perpetrators' mother committed suicide and both were involved in petty crime from a young age. Religion is not the main problem here.

Some hollow explanation about how Islam is political does not mean the aims were religious as well. Re-evaluate your one-dimensional thinking please.



And besides, its your word against the terrorism minister in Tunisia. On a BBC Radio 4 programme about two weeks ago, even she admitted that terror attacks are always done for political aims and not religious.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by generallee
You will be saying that the conquest and defeat of the Byzantine Empire, with hundreds of thousands killed, enslaved and raped had nothing to do with Islam next...

When the Ottomans turned all the churches into mosques they were pursuing a specific political motive. Nothing to do with religion at all.


I'm not going to waste time with someone who makes absurd extrapolations. Defend your argument, it shouldn't be too difficult buddy.
Original post by alevelstresss
Your defence is completely hollow? "UHH ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM COS THE MEDIA CALLS IT ISLAMIC TERRORISM"

please actually discuss this, terror attacks are almost always done for political aims, by hateful people whose lives have turned south by some traumatic events - that alone is more solid than all of your arguments put together


No I just believe what they tell us when they explain why they are currently slaughtering people in the name of Allah and then texts they use to justify their barbarity.

You seem to think you know better then them

But it has been explained to you by numerous posters Islam has a political component.
Original post by Good bloke
Furthermore, when those political aims are to further the spread or domination of Islam, obeying commands given by a supposed deity, they quite reasonably called are Islamist terror attacks, as in this case apparently


Explain how terrorising citizens aims to 'spread Islam'? It doesn't.

Terrorists never want to spread Islam when they do their attacks, evidence of this is the fact that Muslims suffer the most from terrorist attacks than all other religions/races combined. Surely if your theory here were correct, they would not be so indiscriminate?
Original post by alevelstresss

Some hollow explanation about how Islam is political does not mean the aims were religious as well. Re-evaluate your one-dimensional thinking please.


Following a religious scripture that says the only way to live is documented here and it is the duty of believers to spread and ensure the domination of the way of life mandated here is both religious and political. Re-evaluate your denial.
Original post by BaconandSauce
No I just believe what they tell us when they explain why they are currently slaughtering people in the name of Allah and then texts they use to justify their barbarity.

You seem to think you know better then them

But it has been explained to you by numerous posters Islam has a political component.


Then well done bacon, you've fallen for their lies and you are legitimising their murderous actions.
The original cause is NEVER them wanting to help Islam, they have specific political/hateful aims, which are THEN justified through Islam. Thats how these murderers live with themselves, and you're legitimising their purported motive.
Original post by Good bloke
Following a religious scripture that says the only way to live is documented here and it is the duty of believers to spread and ensure the domination of the way of life mandated here is both religious and political. Re-evaluate your denial.


I'll refer you to my other reply.

Muslims die in terror attacks more than any other group. How do these indiscriminate terrorist attacks in the Middle East actually help 'spread Islam'? They don't.
Original post by alevelstresss
I'm not going to waste time with someone who makes absurd extrapolations. Defend your argument, it shouldn't be too difficult buddy.


On the contrary there is no point debating with someone as ignorant as you.

ISIS is not doing anything that wasn't done first by Mohammed. The beheading of prisoners, the taking of sex slaves, the exercise of Jihad as a holy war of conquest.

Educate yourself on Islamic history and come back to me. Until then, talking to you further is not worth my time, son.
Original post by alevelstresss
I'll refer you to my other reply.

Muslims die in terror attacks more than any other group. How do these indiscriminate terrorist attacks in the Middle East actually help 'spread Islam'? They don't.


You again seriously? Muslims die in terror attacks because Isis doesnt regard them as true muslims.Isis are ultra-conservative muslims so they dont regard more liberal muslims as true muslims.Just like the shias dont think sunnis are true muslims and vice versa.They both believe that they're interpretation of islam is correct.
Original post by generallee
On the contrary there is no point debating with someone as ignorant as you.

ISIS is not doing anything that wasn't done first by Mohammed. The beheading of prisoners, the taking of sex slaves, the exercise of Jihad as a holy war of conquest.

Educate yourself on Islamic history and come back to me. Until then, talking to you further is not worth my time, son.


Your statement there is irrelevant to my original point. Yes, Islam has barbaric tenets and a barbaric history. But the aims of terrorist attacks are almost never religious, apart from maybe Charlie Hebdo. They always have specific hateful, political goals, which are then justified through extreme interpretations of Islam.

Do you think ISIS would go around beheading hostages if it weren't in their best interest to do so? Their hateful goals come first, Islam comes second - so whinging about Islam being extreme is a waste of time and collectively incriminates 1.6 billion unnecessary people.
Original post by alevelstresss
Then well done bacon, you've fallen for their lies and you are legitimising their murderous actions.


As I said I'm sure you know better than those fighting in the name of Allah:wink:
Original post by Robby2312
You again seriously? Muslims die in terror attacks because Isis doesnt regard them as true muslims.Isis are ultra-conservative muslims so they dont regard more liberal muslims as true muslims.Just like the shias dont think sunnis are true muslims and vice versa.They both believe that they're interpretation of islam is correct.


please prove this statement, and also expand it to the non-ISIS terrorist groups who have done the same in the past
Original post by alevelstresss
Explain how terrorising citizens aims to 'spread Islam'? It doesn't.

Terrorists never want to spread Islam when they do their attacks, evidence of this is the fact that Muslims suffer the most from terrorist attacks than all other religions/races combined. Surely if your theory here were correct, they would not be so indiscriminate?


Setting aside the question of how you are so close to their thoughts and motivations, you must have heard that Moslems are hopelessly split. To the Salafis the others are not Moslems at all (just as the Saudi chief cleric said that the Iranians, being Shia, are not Moslems the other day) so, to them, this is not a problem.

In any case, it is only the western democracies, who are in thrall to extreme liberals, who seek to ban collateral damage and wage war with no casualties. Everyone else continues to wage war in an effort to win it.
Original post by Good bloke
Setting aside the question of how you are so close to their thoughts and motivations, you must have heard that Moslems are hopelessly split. To the Salafis the others are not Moslems at all (just as the Saudi chief cleric said that the Iranians, being Shia, are not Moslems the other day) so, to them, this is not a problem. In any case, it is only the western democracies, who are in thrall to extreme liberals, who seek to ban collateral damage and wage war with no casualties. Everyone else continues to wage war in an effort to win it.
What a wasteful way to completely ignore my point.Explain why spreading Islam is a main political aim of terrorism, despite Muslims being the group who suffers most from terrorism.
Original post by alevelstresss
the aims of terrorist attacks are almost never religious, apart from maybe Charlie Hebdo.


You are making a category mistake.

There is no separation of church and state in Islam.

The religious is always political and the political always religious for Muslims.
Original post by alevelstresss
Explain why spreading Islam is a main political aim of terrorism, despite Muslims being the group who suffers most from terrorism.


I have done so, but let's try again:

(b) one of the aims of Islam, given a literal interpretation of the Koran, is to spread Islam throughout the world

(b) the Koran itself forbids any interpretation of or addition to its message, leaving the literalists with the high ground and a mindset firmly based in the seventh century with Mohammed

(c) the terrorists deem anyone who isn't of their own literal Koranic interpretation as non-Moslems (and have said so) just as other groups of Moslems treat different sects as non-Moslems (and have said so)

You haven't actually read the Koran, have you?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by generallee
You are making a category mistake.

There is no separation of church and state in Islam.

The religious is always political and the political always religious for Muslims.


Explain to me how the political aims of the Bataclan attackers, revenge for/wanting to stop French airstrikes on ISIS, translates to a religious motivation?

Explain to me how the political aims of the Tunisian museum / beach attackers, wanting to cripple Tunisia's tourism industry, translates to a religious motivation?

Explain to me how the political aims of the various Turkey bombings by the Kurds, revenge for their direct opposition to the Kurds, translates to a religious motivation?
Original post by Good bloke
I have done so, but let's try again:

(b) one of the aims of Islam, given a literal interpretation of the Koran, is to spread Islam throughout the world

(b) the Koran itself forbids any interpretation of or addition to its message, leaving the literalists with the high ground and a mindset firmly based in the seventh century with Mohammed

(c) the terrorists deem anyone who isn't of their own literal Koranic interpretation as non-Moslems (and have said so) just as other groups of Moslems treat different sects as non-Moslems (and have said so)

You haven't actually read the Koran, have you?


a) this is stated in the Quran

c) and the punishment for those who wage war is according to the Quran is death.

No he hasn't
Original post by alevelstresss
Explain to me how the political aims of the Bataclan attackers, revenge for/wanting to stop French airstrikes on ISIS, translates to a religious motivation? Defence and support of a political organisation (which acts on religious and political grounds) is both a political and a religious motivation.

Explain to me how the political aims of the Tunisian museum / beach attackers, wanting to cripple Tunisia's tourism industry, translates to a religious motivation? Again, if they were supporting ISIS, their aims are both religious and political, as those of ISIS are.

Explain to me how the political aims of the various Turkey bombings by the Kurds, revenge for their direct opposition to the Kurds, translates to a religious motivation?


See my comments in the quote. The Kurds are a purely political group, fighting for autonomy or independence.
Original post by BaconandSauce

c) and the punishment for those who wage war is according to the Quran is death.


Quite! And this means waging war against Allah, or Allah's footsoldiers, ISIS (in their eyes).

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