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Help! Did something stupid on medical placement

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I strongly suggest that the amateurs suggesting that it isn;t a FtP issue pipe down

It is a Patient safety Issue of people randomly decide to disappear / can;t be arsed to to turn in - remember that your HEI is looking to say you will be safe to practice at the point of registration.

I think the amateurs also need to belt up until they've done some research on heralth aspects of FtP and the applicability of the Equality Act in these cases .
Original post by JavaScriptMaster
ANXIETY ANXIETY, TALK ABOUT ANXIETY!

Two of my mates claim to have anxiety and they get away with murder because of it. One of em gets his cabs paid for by the university (he commutes and it's £600/week) and the other gets extension on all of his university assignments. Also they get free laptops when they need em


and, in years to come when something goes down it will be dug up as evidence that they are mentally unfit to be doctors.
Because mental health issues and medicine really don't go together well. Allowances are made for physical disabilities, but mental health issues can be a career killer.
To falsely claim it is foolish beyond belief.
Original post by Anonymous
There's no way that a panel would consider a medical student skipping a day of placement as a risk to patient safety. Not a chance. It's dishonest, and frankly OP deserves to be shot down for what he/she did, but it's not a patient safety issue in this instance.


It is much more a patient safety issue for nurses because they (whilst not supposedly) are neceesary as students to assist the running of the ward. Without them they are short handed.

But lying in the manner depicted by the OP most definately is a FtP issue and I have personally seen 2 doctors suspended for 6 and 12 months respectively because of lying.
One of them had lied on their CV when applying for an academic (non-clinical) teaching post that they were a reg rather than an SHO and that they had won some prize which they hadn't.
The other had faked sign ups in their attendance log book.

EDIT - actually one doctor and one medical student (final year)
There's lying, and then there's lying. Neither are exactly good options, but it's not like you falsified documents. You're still training - this is a learning opportunity and they are there to support your learning. You're bound to have to complete some sort of remedial exercise, which may include some punitive element, but they're hardly going to boot you off the course. Worst I can imagine is redoing the placement. Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to boot someone off of a course in the UK? You'd have to be pretty bloody shocking.

I think you'll come out of it a little scarred, and hopefully wiser, but essentially the in one piece.
what happened OP? :redface:
Reply 45
Avatar for G.name
G.name
10
Original post by Anonymous
Hi everyone
This is my first thread so would really appreciate some advice

Im currently a 5th year medical student and on placement. I have passed my finals so really happy about that but whilst on placement recently i did something really stupid and unprofessional.

I was supposed to go in one day but didnt and lied to my supervisor saying i went in. Anyway, he found out i lied about coming in, he now will not sign me off (understandably) and has said he will inform the medical school about my dishonesty.

I know its so silly of me to have lied and of course unprofessional but beyond upset now about having done this and extremely anxious about whats going to happen. If they exclude me for this as my conduct comes into question i dont know what i will do.

Any advice/help is appreciated.

Thanks for reading. 😔


There must be a reason why you didn't go in that day, right? Show your honesty, admit you made the mistake, explain why; and lastly, reflect on that, and ways to avoid it in the future. As it's been said earlier, they've invested too much money in you now, to not favour a way to graduate you.

Best wishes!

G
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Anonymous
Hi everyone
This is my first thread so would really appreciate some advice

Im currently a 5th year medical student and on placement. I have passed my finals so really happy about that but whilst on placement recently i did something really stupid and unprofessional.

I was supposed to go in one day but didnt and lied to my supervisor saying i went in. Anyway, he found out i lied about coming in, he now will not sign me off (understandably) and has said he will inform the medical school about my dishonesty.

I know its so silly of me to have lied and of course unprofessional but beyond upset now about having done this and extremely anxious about whats going to happen. If they exclude me for this as my conduct comes into question i dont know what i will do.

Any advice/help is appreciated.

Thanks for reading. 😔


I don't know what your worrying about, it was only one time and all you have to do if you are called in to explain is just say you were stressed or depressed about something and under pressure. No point saying i couldnt be bothered to go in that day just say what i wrote above or something similar in your own words and they will be more sympathetic as everyone suffers from stress and depression so they will understand that excuse but they won't if you tell them you just did not feel like going in that day.
It does'nt matter what you told your tutor but just tell the medical school you were stressed. I would have said pretend someone in your family was ill but that lie is too big and they might want to confirm it but i don't think they really would but it's not worth risking another big lie, just a small one that they can't prove like being stressed.
Don't worry about it until the day of your appointment to see them
Everyone lies, at least it wasn't a paid job you took time off from because an employer would consider that a bad thing to do.
It's not going to stop you getting a job is it ?
And it's not the crime of the century
And your're already kicking yourself for doing it so you have learnt a valuable lesson never to do it again because of all the stress of worrying about it
You know next time to just ring in and pretend you are ill.
We all do stupid things we regret, the important thing is to learn from it
If you do get called in again to explain let everyone know what happened as i don't think anything bad will happen anyway, you'll just get a light telling off but i don't know that for sure, i'm just hoping for your sake that's all it will be.
Hi everyone apologies for posting so late! I forgot about it (in all honesty) The issue was initially referred to my university's health and conduct committee who then referred me to fitness to practice. FTP decided that I would have to repeat my final year and redo all elements except my exams which I have already passed.
Obviously this was upsetting at the time as I had my offer of employment accepted for my FY1 post but i have now started my final year again and completed the first placement.

On top of this I have to meet with the university student welfare team every block and am also going through enhanced monitoring which means I have weekly registers which need to be signed twice a day (morning and afternoon) by the registrar/consultant/supervisor on my placement. This needs to be handed in at the end of each week. Moreover, my supervisor needs to fill in a separate form at the end of the placement (on top of my sign off form) composed of different areas which he/she needs to comment on i.e. attendance, honesty, punctuality etc. Also for my elective I cannot go abroad I have to do an 8 week placement locally.

All in all, it's been a difficult few months especially not being able to graduate with everyone else in my year. If anyone wants to know anything else please ask and apologies again for the extremely late reply! Thanks everyone for all the help and support
Reply 48
Avatar for Ghotay
Ghotay
13
That seems like a massive overreaction, completely out of proportion with what you actually did. I genuinely can't believe it
Yeah that is a completely ridiculous reaction from your university.*
Original post by Ghotay
That seems like a massive overreaction, completely out of proportion with what you actually did. I genuinely can't believe it


An entirely legitimate Conditions of Practice requirement.

As a Student HCP you will be held to the standards of probity expected for a registrant in your profession and unauthorised absences of that nature would be deemed serious if not gross misconduct by an employee.
Original post by zippyRN
An entirely legitimate Conditions of Practice requirement.

As a Student HCP you will be held to the standards of probity expected for a registrant in your profession and unauthorised absences of that nature would be deemed serious if not gross misconduct by an employee.


Are you having a laugh? Medical student attendance on a ward is completely different to doctors' attendance. Doctors have to be there to do their job. Medical students are meant to be doing private study etc as well. In final year of uni, it was completely normal for medical students to not go in certain days, or only go in for a couple of hours.
Original post by Ghotay
That seems like a massive overreaction, completely out of proportion with what you actually did. I genuinely can't believe it


Ditto - that's a colossal punishment for a single (if serious) transgression.

That said, I do know of someone who had something similar happen; she forged her elective forms so it looked like she'd been on placement for 7 weeks, while actually she'd been there for 1 and gone travelling for the remaining 6. The med school found out and she was given the ultimatum of being kicked out or doing a compulsory intercalation. She accepted the latter, and has just started final year after her year out. Then again, that was much more placement missed (6 weeks rather than 1 day) and there was physical forgery as opposed to a verbal lie, so I am pretty surprised that a similar punishment has been meted out in both cases.
Original post by Ghotay
That seems like a massive overreaction, completely out of proportion with what you actually did. I genuinely can't believe it


Thanks to the OP for updating everyone here.

I don't think anyone should be making statements about whether or not the sanctions are proportionate. We don't even know the OPs status in terms of previous academic progress and/or concerns about attendance. I wonder if there are two issues here: (1) the "unsatisfactory" grade that has justified the academic sanction (i.e. repeating the year) and (2) the probity issue that has justified the enhanced reporting requirements (e.g. not trusted to be on elective overseas). It does sound as if the consequences of this lie have been far reaching.

One last piece of advice for the OP is to never be tempted to hide this decision if/when asked by future employers. The temptation to avoid fully declaring an FTP process/sanction can be enough to persuade (even otherwise honest) doctors make bad decisions. This always results in a spiral of anxiety and deceit. The GMC eat these doctors for breakfast and the online list of recent MPTS decisions is full of doctors that did not declare they were under investigation and so are held up as exhibiting a "pattern of dishonesty".

For what it's worth, I suspect that every student and doctor has lied to a consultant about something important at some stage. The OP probably just got unlucky but they need to be absolutely open and honest going forward so that the FTP process doesn't return to finish the job later on. If they do this then the whole issue will just be one of many "war stories" they can tell students and juniors when they are a consultant or GP. *
Original post by *pitseleh*
Ditto - that's a colossal punishment for a single (if serious) transgression.

That said, I do know of someone who had something similar happen; she forged her elective forms so it looked like she'd been on placement for 7 weeks, while actually she'd been there for 1 and gone travelling for the remaining 6. The med school found out and she was given the ultimatum of being kicked out or doing a compulsory intercalation. She accepted the latter, and has just started final year after her year out. Then again, that was much more placement missed (6 weeks rather than 1 day) and there was physical forgery as opposed to a verbal lie, so I am pretty surprised that a similar punishment has been meted out in both cases.


I think her punishment was fair enough, for the two reasons you describe. Lying about 6 weeks of placement is more serious than just missing a day.*
Original post by Chief Wiggum
I think her punishment was fair enough, for the two reasons you describe. Lying about 6 weeks of placement is more serious than just missing a day.


Yep, I agree. Was just thinking aloud really (well, you know what I mean) as to whether I was surprised at the OP's university's reaction or not. :smile:
Original post by Anonymous
Hi everyone apologies for posting so late! I forgot about it (in all honesty) The issue was initially referred to my university's health and conduct committee who then referred me to fitness to practice. FTP decided that I would have to repeat my final year and redo all elements except my exams which I have already passed.
Obviously this was upsetting at the time as I had my offer of employment accepted for my FY1 post but i have now started my final year again and completed the first placement.

On top of this I have to meet with the university student welfare team every block and am also going through enhanced monitoring which means I have weekly registers which need to be signed twice a day (morning and afternoon) by the registrar/consultant/supervisor on my placement. This needs to be handed in at the end of each week. Moreover, my supervisor needs to fill in a separate form at the end of the placement (on top of my sign off form) composed of different areas which he/she needs to comment on i.e. attendance, honesty, punctuality etc. Also for my elective I cannot go abroad I have to do an 8 week placement locally.

All in all, it's been a difficult few months especially not being able to graduate with everyone else in my year. If anyone wants to know anything else please ask and apologies again for the extremely late reply! Thanks everyone for all the help and support
Thanks for letting us know what happened - I can appreciate it's been very difficult for you.

Original post by Ghotay
That seems like a massive overreaction, completely out of proportion with what you actually did. I genuinely can't believe it
See MonteCristo's post above.

Original post by Chief Wiggum
Yeah that is a completely ridiculous reaction from your university.*
No, it isn't - because it's the principle that matters rather than the scale of the dishonesty. The only thing that distinguishes the case from the one quoted by pitseleh below is that this wasn't planned and deliberate dishonesty.

Original post by zippyRN
An entirely legitimate Conditions of Practice requirement.

As a Student HCP you will be held to the standards of probity expected for a registrant in your profession and unauthorised absences of that nature would be deemed serious if not gross misconduct by an employee.
Quite.

Original post by Anonymous
Are you having a laugh? Medical student attendance on a ward is completely different to doctors' attendance. Doctors have to be there to do their job. Medical students are meant to be doing private study etc as well. In final year of uni, it was completely normal for medical students to not go in certain days, or only go in for a couple of hours.
There is a distinction here between what the OP was supposed to be doing and what he actually did, and then lied about.

Original post by *pitseleh*
Ditto - that's a colossal punishment for a single (if serious) transgression.

That said, I do know of someone who had something similar happen; she forged her elective forms so it looked like she'd been on placement for 7 weeks, while actually she'd been there for 1 and gone travelling for the remaining 6. The med school found out and she was given the ultimatum of being kicked out or doing a compulsory intercalation. She accepted the latter, and has just started final year after her year out. Then again, that was much more placement missed (6 weeks rather than 1 day) and there was physical forgery as opposed to a verbal lie, so I am pretty surprised that a similar punishment has been meted out in both cases.
If I'd had anything to do with the decision in that case, she'd have been out, no question. There's no way I'd have even considered an intercalation, let alone allowed it. That behaviour is so fundamentally dishonest - deliberate, planned, with great effort taken to conceal it - that it suggests that the individual concerned should not be allowed anywhere near a job that relies on absolute trust. Actually, as a member of the tax-paying public and as a potential service-user, I am horrified that this was allowed.
Original post by Minerva
No, it isn't - because it's the principle that matters rather than the scale of the dishonesty. The only thing that distinguishes the case from the one quoted by pitseleh below is that this wasn't planned and deliberate dishonesty.
* * *

That's a big difference, in my opinion. Lying about attending one day of placement is utterly trivial, in my opinion. People, including medical students and doctors, tell trivial lies all the time.

When I'm a consultant, I couldn't live with myself if I made a student repeat a year over something so minor.

I also think that some people from a non medical background replying to this thread perhaps don't realise that attendance on a medical student placement tends to be flexible and not too strictly enforced.*
I'm with the totally disproportionate crowd.

I think at least half my year would be repeating if all that was required was lack of attendance and subsequent lying about why when asked on the spot.

I suspect OP had not disclosed all the details.

Original post by Minerva

If I'd had anything to do with the decision in that case, she'd have been out, no question. There's no way I'd have even considered an intercalation, let alone allowed it. That behaviour is so fundamentally dishonest - deliberate, planned, with great effort taken to conceal it - that it suggests that the individual concerned should not be allowed anywhere near a job that relies on absolute trust. Actually, as a member of the tax-paying public and as a potential service-user, I am horrified that this was allowed.


That sounds pretty bad sure, but you've invested so much to educate this person at this stage. Being actually struck off requires a LOT - remember that there are practicing Drs out there on the sex offenders register, who have committed violent crimes etc.

I don't know what your elective was like but we didn't even have a sign off or any formal requirements, except it being a healthcare setting for a certain time period. What is described doesn't sound unusual for me (except the forgery bit).
Original post by Chief Wiggum
* * *

That's a big difference, in my opinion. Lying about attending one day of placement is utterly trivial, in my opinion. People, including medical students and doctors, tell trivial lies all the time.

When I'm a consultant, I couldn't live with myself if I made a student repeat a year over something so minor.

I also think that some people from a non medical background replying to this thread perhaps don't realise that attendance on a medical student placement tends to be flexible and not too strictly enforced.*


Agree with you; isn't the entire point of attendance monitoring to track over time? By all means give the student a *******ing and make clear that a repeat will result in serious penalty, but making them resit the year for the sake of one missed sessions seems disproportionate beyond belief.

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