The I-SOC (Islamic Society) XIII

Original post by Enginerd.

Why is there an 8 in the thread title?

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So true,

Reply 2962

Zamestaneh

OP

21

Original post by Inzamam99

Out of interest- why do you consider Shias to be deviant?

Are all their sects deviant or just some?

Shia teachings are that Sunnis are deviant and Sunni teachings are that Shia are deviant. Respectively we believe that each other are deviant because of differences in aqeedah which are huge and the implications of which are that not both of us can be right at the same time or a valid difference of opinion. We believe that the foundation of their belief is fabricated, and likewise they believe the same for us on the most part.

By matter of fact, every sect that exists believes that others are astray if they are not upon the same thing (ignoring fiqh issues which constitute differences of opinion) because Aqeedah is the basis of one's Islam and there can only be one haq. The only difference is the extent to which one is astray and also how vocal one is about others being considered astray. It is such that the widely held misperception that Sufis are loving and peaceful doesn't stand true when you consider that they hold Salafis to be astray and often get violent, abusive or ostracise you if you appraise their beliefs, for example, so no Muslim is truly free from these 'sectarian' undertones.

I will respond to your other post soon inshaAllah.

Reply 2963

HAnwar

17

Original post by Leukocyte

I left extra early mate!
I'm not going back in to see that grumpy roti face.

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Loool

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Reply 2964

Al-farhan

20

Original post by Enginerd.

Why is there an 8 in the thread title?

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After all this time I just noticed it now.
Why indeed, we need to ask sultan zam as to why he added an 8.

Reply 2965

Inzamam99

Original post by Zamestaneh

Shia teachings are that Sunnis are deviant and Sunni teachings are that Shia are deviant. Respectively we believe that each other are deviant because of differences in aqeedah which are huge and the implications of which are that not both of us can be right at the same time or a valid difference of opinion. We believe that the foundation of their belief is fabricated, and likewise they believe the same for us on the most part.

By matter of fact, every sect that exists believes that others are astray if they are not upon the same thing (ignoring fiqh issues which constitute differences of opinion) because Aqeedah is the basis of one's Islam and there can only be one haq. The only difference is the extent to which one is astray and also how vocal one is about others being considered astray. It is such that the widely held misperception that Sufis are loving and peaceful doesn't stand true when you consider that they hold Salafis to be astray and often get violent, abusive or ostracise you if you appraise their beliefs, for example, so no Muslim is truly free from these 'sectarian' undertones.

I will respond to your other post soon inshaAllah.

With all respect, what is this based on?

The Hadith of both Sunnis and Shias are man made and when it comes to provenance, both have the same reliability. Why trust certain sources over others?

Well in terms of their underlying ideology, Sufis are a lot more peaceful than Salafis. The amount of bitterness, anger and hatred I have seen in Salafis towards fellow human beings is almost incomparable.

Reply 2966

Al-farhan

20

Original post by Inzamam99

With all respect, what is this based on?

The Hadith of both Sunnis and Shias are man made and when it comes to provenance, both have the same reliability. Why trust certain sources over others?

Well in terms of their underlying ideology, Sufis are a lot more peaceful than Salafis. The amount of bitterness, anger and hatred I have seen in Salafis towards fellow human beings is almost incomparable.

Hadiths are part of the islamic scripture and have been circulated and relied upon since the time of the prophet pbuh and the time of his companions.
And the scholars after them have developed and maintained safe guards and purifying what is authentic sayings of the prophet and clearly indicating which are not authentic or fabricated.
So for a muslim who prays (details from hadiths), gives zakah...etc it would be neigh impossible or even fathomable to say hadiths are not part of the deen.

Reply 2967

Original post by Leukocyte

What's wrong with you guys? Can't you just stop this whole secterian matter which pops up every month in this thread. You're old enough to know what to do when one person is being ridiculous about this all. I find it hard to understand why some seem to carry on sharing their views knowing it wont achieve anything.

Look at this beautiful bird instead.

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Is that bird halal? Would be a shame if someone halalified it :h:

Reply 2968

Inzamam99

Original post by Al-farhan

Hadiths are part of the islamic scripture and have been circulated and relied upon since the time of the prophet pbuh and the time of his companions.
And the scholars after them have developed and maintained safe guards and purifying what is authentic sayings of the prophet and clearly indicating which are not authentic or fabricated.
So for a muslim who prays (details from hadiths), gives zakah...etc it would be neigh impossible or even fathomable to say hadiths are not part of the deen.

I appreciate that and I was the same myself. But what I question is the authenticity and reliability of the Hadith particularly when we note that details of most Islamic rituals, jurisprudence etc. in fact do not derive from the Quran but the Hadith which are unquestionably man made. It still boggles my mind how people who do not understand anything about Islamic tradition, history or indeed want to are so emotionally dependent on the religion that they fail to even consider that their beliefs may be false.

Historical facts prove beyond any shadow of doubt that there were no hadith collections existing at the time of the Prophet's death. History also proves that the early caliphs prevented the dissemination or recording of hadith. They essentially seem to have been written hundreds of years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad using tenous "chains of narration".

Consider these facts:

- The Prophet said something or did something.

- People close to the Prophet recorded this event to memory.

- They passed it down verbally to multiple people, who in turn passed it to multiple people.

- About 200 years after the Prophet died these hadith were formally documented by Bukhari, Muslim, etc.

- 200 years represents anywhere from 4 to 7 links in the chain of narration. So: person 1 told person 2 who told person 3 who told person 4 who told person 5 who told me that the Prophet said so-and-so. The ending pool of people is easily in the hundreds, if not thousands.

- Those 200 years were a very highly politically and religiously charged time. Additionally, almost all individuals in the chain of narration were male, and the compilations were done by males.

- While the people who compiled the hadith were noble in their efforts and very scholarly, even a hundred percent success on their part can only be as good as the words of the last links in the chain of narration. From what I understand, they compiled hundreds of thousands of hadith and then had to discard the vast majority of them. It was their own judgment that determined what stayed and what didn't.

- The first links in the chain of narration were often close to the Prophet. So let's assume they were completely unbiased and true. But at each narration, the individual is further from reality. Personal biases, innocent misinterpretations, etc will impact the narration tremendously. These are average humans we are talking about here.

Reply 2969

Original post by guided1

You only care about the Muslims on your side what about the Muslims on the other side? Oh yeah you dont think they are Muslims and you say you arent sectarian. Brother the Islamic view is that we are all Muslims it is not for you to call takfir of others. All lives are sacred. May Allah guide you from this destructive path inshallah.

Prove that I only care about people on my side.

If being sectarian means I disagree that people who diss Umar (ra) and Abu Bakr (ra) are Muslims then I'll gladly accept the sectarian label.

Takfir is very much fine if done correctedly. I did not make Takfir as a layperson, I simply repeated the words of Ulema.

I gave a quote by Imam Malik and you ignored it. I think he is very much qualified to make the takfir.

Lol OK bro, we don't say insha'Allah in duas btw.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 2970

Original post by Enginerd.

Why is there an 8 in the thread title?

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Illuminati.

Reply 2971

Original post by ak143244

It's been okay so far, just hope it goes like this. What about you? :smile:

Haven't really been upto much :tongue:

Reply 2972

Assalamu Alaykum, how is everyone? :ahee:

Reply 2973

username2280427

Original post by IdeasForLife

Is that bird halal? Would be a shame if someone halalified it :h:

Every soul shall taste death :smile:

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Reply 2974

username2280427

Original post by h333

Assalamu Alaykum, how is everyone? :ahee:

Walaykum asalaam

Alhamdulillah well, on my way home. Just had a bottle of pepsi XD

Wbu?

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Reply 2975

Original post by Leukocyte

Walaykum asalaam

Alhamdulillah well, on my way home. Just had a bottle of pepsi XD

Wbu?

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Have not had pepsi or any fizzy drink for ages tbh 😱

Sameeee, on my way home, been waiting at the bus stop for like an hour now 😐

Reply 2976

username2280427

Original post by h333

Have not had pepsi or any fizzy drink for ages tbh 😱

Sameeee, on my way home, been waiting at the bus stop for like an hour now 😐

That's good.

Damn I would have started walking already 😉

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Reply 2977

Original post by Leukocyte

That's good.

Damn I would have started walking already 😉

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Well, the bus timetable kept deceiving me smh. Bus got cancelled twice, right at the time when it was meant to be due 😂😭
Well I was not alone, plenty of people frustrated about it. But Alhamdulillah I am just 2 bus stops away.

Wait, I noticed something, I will pm you 😱

Reply 2978

newusername96

2

Original post by Zamestaneh

Shia teachings are that Sunnis are deviant and Sunni teachings are that Shia are deviant. Respectively we believe that each other are deviant because of differences in aqeedah which are huge and the implications of which are that not both of us can be right at the same time or a valid difference of opinion. We believe that the foundation of their belief is fabricated, and likewise they believe the same for us on the most part. By matter of fact, every sect that exists believes that others are astray if they are not upon the same thing (ignoring fiqh issues which constitute differences of opinion) because Aqeedah is the basis of one's Islam and there can only be one haq. The only difference is the extent to which one is astray and also how vocal one is about others being considered astray. It is such that the widely held misperception that Sufis are loving and peaceful doesn't stand true when you consider that they hold Salafis to be astray and often get violent, abusive or ostracise you if you appraise their beliefs, for example, so no Muslim is truly free from these 'sectarian' undertones.I will respond to your other post soon inshaAllah.

tbh Sufis are much more peaceful than salafists although Sufi's beliefs are generally more weird haha, but I take weird over violent any day of the week

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 2979