Which is better for your career - uni or an apprenticeship?
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Original post by KardasDragon
When it comes to content heavy, vocational, regulated courses like law, engineering, natural sciences, medicine, nursing etc, there is no way in hell you are getting anywhere without uni.
You don't necessarily need the uni route for engineering. If it is a good scheme, then you can do extremely well and may even end up at university afterwards anyway. It depends where you go and how you go about it in terms of apprenticeship vs uni.
Original post by Donkey******
So my degree from Warwick that I'll get with my apprenticeship is worthless? OK, my £35,000 a year apprentice salary makes that fact easier to deal with.
Original post by Donkey******
I haven't been rude in the slightest.
Apologies if your sense or privilege makes it difficult to deal with criticism. I'm sure mummy and daddy can send you some more money to help you through it.
Apologies if your sense or privilege makes it difficult to deal with criticism. I'm sure mummy and daddy can send you some more money to help you through it.
You are being incredibly rude. Clearly she hit anerve by not agreeing with your opinion and you threw a strop over it.
Get over yourself.
Original post by Inexorably
You are being incredibly rude. Clearly she hit anerve by not agreeing with your opinion and you threw a strop over it.
Get over yourself.
Get over yourself.
Lol, OK. If that's how you've taken the first comment, then clearly it's not been read as intended.
She made the point that you need a degree to get anywhere. University is not the only way to get a degree. Her whole argument was based around the fact that getting a degree from a good university is the only way to progress your career. My point was I get that, and get paid. If it's been misinterpreted, so be it, the joys of the the internet, people can infer what they like from a conversation taken out of context with zero tone.
I'll say it again, just to be clear, Apprenticeship - degree + experience vs Uni - degree + debt.
I think apprenticeships are good for those who are much more hands on and would rather learn on the job than study for 3/4 years. However if you are not one of these people I feel like everyone should attend university. It provides you with so many skills that you can't get anywhere else. In the past few weeks alone I've grown so much as a person. Maybe t the end of the day a degree and an apprentiship may give you the same opportunities, but uni really provides you with experiences that are also very important.
Original post by Tsrsarahhhh
I think apprenticeships are good for those who are much more hands on and would rather learn on the job than study for 3/4 years. However if you are not one of these people I feel like everyone should attend university. It provides you with so many skills that you can't get anywhere else. In the past few weeks alone I've grown so much as a person. Maybe t the end of the day a degree and an apprentiship may give you the same opportunities, but uni really provides you with experiences that are also very important.
What skills/experiences would you get at uni that you wouldn't get on an apprenticeship?
I already posted the link to a full research study project on employment social mobility and earning potential of degree subjects and universities.
I have also found a site which can tell you the average salary for almost any degree subject at any university. just google which university and your subject+ university.
this conversation has polarized extremes. from someone assuming degrees are gold dust to donkey who seems to assume every apprenticeship out strips every degree.
after research it seems i was slightly wrong the average degree earns more then the average apprenticeship but barely. but this is incredibly misleading.
for example a degree in art and design from Bedfordshire university earns graduates an average starting salary of £15600 which is barely more then min wage only 4% more. take a job at tesco shelf stacking factor in weekend bonus pay etc and you have done better.
Whilst a mathmatics degree from Oxbridge nets over £30000 average graduate salary bit of a difference. and its not just Oxbridge or nothing warwick and Bristol maths degrees for example net graduate average salaries of £28000 and £27000.
this does beat the average salary of someone who has completed an apprenticeship. and life time earnings will be stronger to.
this idea of degree or apprenticeship really depends on your field and what type of apprenticeship your getting vs what type of degree your doing,
Basically if you get onto a course for a strong degree eg Maths, computer science, Medicine, dentistry etc at a prestigious university its def worth doing this. if your looking at a fine art degree at a sub par university it really isn't.
I am strictly speaking in economic terms here, which is what i think counts in the long term but then again some people may have other priorities. its simple google your degree subject look at the institutions you would likely be studying at and make an educated decision from there.
I have also found a site which can tell you the average salary for almost any degree subject at any university. just google which university and your subject+ university.
this conversation has polarized extremes. from someone assuming degrees are gold dust to donkey who seems to assume every apprenticeship out strips every degree.
after research it seems i was slightly wrong the average degree earns more then the average apprenticeship but barely. but this is incredibly misleading.
for example a degree in art and design from Bedfordshire university earns graduates an average starting salary of £15600 which is barely more then min wage only 4% more. take a job at tesco shelf stacking factor in weekend bonus pay etc and you have done better.
Whilst a mathmatics degree from Oxbridge nets over £30000 average graduate salary bit of a difference. and its not just Oxbridge or nothing warwick and Bristol maths degrees for example net graduate average salaries of £28000 and £27000.
this does beat the average salary of someone who has completed an apprenticeship. and life time earnings will be stronger to.
this idea of degree or apprenticeship really depends on your field and what type of apprenticeship your getting vs what type of degree your doing,
Basically if you get onto a course for a strong degree eg Maths, computer science, Medicine, dentistry etc at a prestigious university its def worth doing this. if your looking at a fine art degree at a sub par university it really isn't.
I am strictly speaking in economic terms here, which is what i think counts in the long term but then again some people may have other priorities. its simple google your degree subject look at the institutions you would likely be studying at and make an educated decision from there.
Original post by Luke7456
I already posted the link to a full research study project on employment social mobility and earning potential of degree subjects and universities.
I have also found a site which can tell you the average salary for almost any degree subject at any university. just google which university and your subject+ university.
this conversation has polarized extremes. from someone assuming degrees are gold dust to donkey who seems to assume every apprenticeship out strips every degree.
after research it seems i was slightly wrong the average degree earns more then the average apprenticeship but barely. but this is incredibly misleading.
for example a degree in art and design from Bedfordshire university earns graduates an average starting salary of £15600 which is barely more then min wage only 4% more. take a job at tesco shelf stacking factor in weekend bonus pay etc and you have done better.
Whilst a mathmatics degree from Oxbridge nets over £30000 average graduate salary bit of a difference. and its not just Oxbridge or nothing warwick and Bristol maths degrees for example net graduate average salaries of £28000 and £27000.
this does beat the average salary of someone who has completed an apprenticeship. and life time earnings will be stronger to.
this idea of degree or apprenticeship really depends on your field and what type of apprenticeship your getting vs what type of degree your doing,
Basically if you get onto a course for a strong degree eg Maths, computer science, Medicine, dentistry etc at a prestigious university its def worth doing this. if your looking at a fine art degree at a sub par university it really isn't.
I am strictly speaking in economic terms here, which is what i think counts in the long term but then again some people may have other priorities. its simple google your degree subject look at the institutions you would likely be studying at and make an educated decision from there.
I have also found a site which can tell you the average salary for almost any degree subject at any university. just google which university and your subject+ university.
this conversation has polarized extremes. from someone assuming degrees are gold dust to donkey who seems to assume every apprenticeship out strips every degree.
after research it seems i was slightly wrong the average degree earns more then the average apprenticeship but barely. but this is incredibly misleading.
for example a degree in art and design from Bedfordshire university earns graduates an average starting salary of £15600 which is barely more then min wage only 4% more. take a job at tesco shelf stacking factor in weekend bonus pay etc and you have done better.
Whilst a mathmatics degree from Oxbridge nets over £30000 average graduate salary bit of a difference. and its not just Oxbridge or nothing warwick and Bristol maths degrees for example net graduate average salaries of £28000 and £27000.
this does beat the average salary of someone who has completed an apprenticeship. and life time earnings will be stronger to.
this idea of degree or apprenticeship really depends on your field and what type of apprenticeship your getting vs what type of degree your doing,
Basically if you get onto a course for a strong degree eg Maths, computer science, Medicine, dentistry etc at a prestigious university its def worth doing this. if your looking at a fine art degree at a sub par university it really isn't.
I am strictly speaking in economic terms here, which is what i think counts in the long term but then again some people may have other priorities. its simple google your degree subject look at the institutions you would likely be studying at and make an educated decision from there.
Well average usually means 'mean' and can be skewed to hell by a small number of outliers, on salary surveys that's virtually guaranteed to make the mean higher than the median. the median salary is closer to being a typical salary, median salaries drop off approximately with uni rank but not very dramatically - no one ever seems to mention this... probably because it's not very exciting.
I'm not convinced that it's the Bristol maths degree causing that salary... are we sure it's not because people who are more likely to end up with high salaries in any case choose to go to Bristol?
Original post by Joinedup
Well average usually means 'mean' and can be skewed to hell by a small number of outliers, on salary surveys that's virtually guaranteed to make the mean higher than the median. the median salary is closer to being a typical salary, median salaries drop off approximately with uni rank but not very dramatically - no one ever seems to mention this... probably because it's not very exciting.
I'm not convinced that it's the Bristol maths degree causing that salary... are we sure it's not because people who are more likely to end up with high salaries in any case choose to go to Bristol?
I'm not convinced that it's the Bristol maths degree causing that salary... are we sure it's not because people who are more likely to end up with high salaries in any case choose to go to Bristol?
actually the study i posted on the previous page accounted for this and adjusted figures. They did not do so specifically for a maths degree at Bristol since that is to specific but they did look at subjects and the Sutton trust 13 universities. which Bristol is included in.
They still show an increase in earning potential for the Sutton trust and for maths.
Original post by Luke7456
actually the study i posted on the previous page accounted for this and adjusted figures. They did not do so specifically for a maths degree at Bristol since that is to specific but they did look at subjects and the Sutton trust 13 universities. which Bristol is included in.
They still show an increase in earning potential for the Sutton trust and for maths.
They still show an increase in earning potential for the Sutton trust and for maths.
Still appears to be based on mean salary - though I've only skimmed it.
The IFS produced a report based on earnings 10 years after graduation
http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/wps/wp1606.pdf
which contains rather difficult to interpret graphs like this
The numbers are afaict just internal reference numbers.
We can see that the median (green) earnings for Cardiff (#5) aren't really very different from some drool zone unis like Bristol (#4), Durham (#13) or Edinburgh (#14) - nothing I'd get particularly excited about anyway.
For practical engineering stuff a good apprenticeship for it is far and away gonna be better than just a degree, from the research into this sort of stuff I've done, particularly if you've got one of those fancy apprenticeships that get you a degree too.
If you're doing something like medicine or mad af science stuff a degree is pretty much your only proper option. This'll go for maths too according to that bloke that posted a lot of random salaries earlier.
If you don't care what you're doing so long as you're making a lotta money then an apprenticeship is most likely going to be better for you due to student debt not cutting into your income.
If you're me and your only natural talents and interests are absolutely useless impractical humanities subjects, you have no practical skills and you're not fussed about making craploads of money in any job (ie priorities that are going to leave you homeless) then you may as get a good degree so that you have some doors open beyond shelf stacking in asda or the slightly-rubbish aldi apprenticeship. Or at least that's how I've rationalised applying for a philosophy degree....
Experiences: Getting absolutely hammered in halls and freshers week sexual intercourse + general social none-helpful-from-a-career-perspective things.
Skills: Bodging a pasta dish for 2 pence, cramming knowledge you're not going to need again at the last minute, and dealing with existential crises brought on by massive debts
That's as much as I know but you must bear in mind I not done either of the things.
If you're doing something like medicine or mad af science stuff a degree is pretty much your only proper option. This'll go for maths too according to that bloke that posted a lot of random salaries earlier.
If you don't care what you're doing so long as you're making a lotta money then an apprenticeship is most likely going to be better for you due to student debt not cutting into your income.
If you're me and your only natural talents and interests are absolutely useless impractical humanities subjects, you have no practical skills and you're not fussed about making craploads of money in any job (ie priorities that are going to leave you homeless) then you may as get a good degree so that you have some doors open beyond shelf stacking in asda or the slightly-rubbish aldi apprenticeship. Or at least that's how I've rationalised applying for a philosophy degree....
Original post by Donkey******
What skills/experiences would you get at uni that you wouldn't get on an apprenticeship?
Experiences: Getting absolutely hammered in halls and freshers week sexual intercourse + general social none-helpful-from-a-career-perspective things.
Skills: Bodging a pasta dish for 2 pence, cramming knowledge you're not going to need again at the last minute, and dealing with existential crises brought on by massive debts
That's as much as I know but you must bear in mind I not done either of the things.
Original post by Joinedup
Still appears to be based on mean salary - though I've only skimmed it.
The IFS produced a report based on earnings 10 years after graduation
http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/wps/wp1606.pdf
which contains rather difficult to interpret graphs like this
The numbers are afaict just internal reference numbers.
We can see that the median (green) earnings for Cardiff (#5) aren't really very different from some drool zone unis like Bristol (#4), Durham (#13) or Edinburgh (#14) - nothing I'd get particularly excited about anyway.
The IFS produced a report based on earnings 10 years after graduation
http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/wps/wp1606.pdf
which contains rather difficult to interpret graphs like this
The numbers are afaict just internal reference numbers.
We can see that the median (green) earnings for Cardiff (#5) aren't really very different from some drool zone unis like Bristol (#4), Durham (#13) or Edinburgh (#14) - nothing I'd get particularly excited about anyway.
Cardiff is a Russel group university which has a strong reputation. In fact according to which university guide their graduate salary average for maths is £26000 which is significantly less then Bristol university for maths which is £27000. especially when we consider they round to the nearest £500.
so I am struggling to see the point here. their are many university ranking methods such as league tables Russel group, Sutton trust etc. so to every rule we can find universities that would be exceptions. I am aware of the difference between mean and median however the data still supports my generic point. Cardiff is a terrible example to pick because Cardiff is a prestigious university.
Spoiler
Original post by Luke7456
Cardiff is a Russel group university which has a strong reputation. In fact according to which university guide their graduate salary average for maths is £26000 which is significantly less then Bristol university for maths which is £27000. especially when we consider they round to the nearest £500.
so I am struggling to see the point here. their are many university ranking methods such as league tables Russel group, Sutton trust etc. so to every rule we can find universities that would be exceptions. I am aware of the difference between mean and median however the data still supports my generic point. Cardiff is a terrible example to pick because Cardiff is a prestigious university.
so I am struggling to see the point here. their are many university ranking methods such as league tables Russel group, Sutton trust etc. so to every rule we can find universities that would be exceptions. I am aware of the difference between mean and median however the data still supports my generic point. Cardiff is a terrible example to pick because Cardiff is a prestigious university.
Spoiler
I'm having to to go off the information in the report which only identifies 17 unis - I percieve cardiff as being something of a whipping boy of the ranking maniacs infesting TSR though that's not necessarily you.
fwiw I can see about 42 unis on that chart - they can't all be in the russell group or the sutton list.
fwiw 2 the all uni graph looks like this...
Original post by Joinedup
I'm having to to go off the information in the report which only identifies 17 unis - I percieve cardiff as being something of a whipping boy of the ranking maniacs infesting TSR though that's not necessarily you.
fwiw I can see about 42 unis on that chart - they can't all be in the russell group or the sutton list.
fwiw 2 the all uni graph looks like this...
fwiw I can see about 42 unis on that chart - they can't all be in the russell group or the sutton list.
fwiw 2 the all uni graph looks like this...
in all honesty I have not covered the statistics modules yet in maths so I am unfamiliar with this type of graph. I am currently working through the averages given on which university for my list I have around 50 universities. and whilst their is a strong trend for higher earnings in the russel group etc their are some significant outliers.
with some russel group unis doing bad for my subject and some none russel group unis doing well.
As I have said numerous times this a generic trend there will always be exceptions and people should be well advised to research their specific course and perspective university.
the graph you posted here though is not legible as i can only make the numbers out towards the top. which still tends to be elite universities the figures in read and green are difficult to make out or read.
as I have said numerous times generic trends and averages. if you find your university and course has a graduate salary exceeding 24k then I would say go for it.
Original post by Luke7456
in all honesty I have not covered the statistics modules yet in maths so I am unfamiliar with this type of graph. I am currently working through the averages given on which university for my list I have around 50 universities. and whilst their is a strong trend for higher earnings in the russel group etc their are some significant outliers.
with some russel group unis doing bad for my subject and some none russel group unis doing well.
As I have said numerous times this a generic trend there will always be exceptions and people should be well advised to research their specific course and perspective university.
the graph you posted here though is not legible as i can only make the numbers out towards the top. which still tends to be elite universities the figures in read and green are difficult to make out or read.
as I have said numerous times generic trends and averages. if you find your university and course has a graduate salary exceeding 24k then I would say go for it.
with some russel group unis doing bad for my subject and some none russel group unis doing well.
As I have said numerous times this a generic trend there will always be exceptions and people should be well advised to research their specific course and perspective university.
the graph you posted here though is not legible as i can only make the numbers out towards the top. which still tends to be elite universities the figures in read and green are difficult to make out or read.
as I have said numerous times generic trends and averages. if you find your university and course has a graduate salary exceeding 24k then I would say go for it.
Basically it's just not a very legible graph tbh - they didn't tabulate the data anywhere afaik and I don't know why or how the selected the universities they did for identification. The report itself might be of interest though.
Original post by Alisaurus Cats
(...) But which do you think is better for a career - uni degrees or apprenticeships?
Depends on. For people who are not know what they want in the next years, the apprenticeship maybe is the best to have enough time to realize concrete goals. For people who exactly know what they want to become, the university is the best way in turn to achieve it.
I have decided myself for apprenticeship. Reasons:
1.) I don't exactly know what I want to study (something with natural sciences and maybe in combination with technology).
2.) Wanted to earn money first instead of invest it.
3.) Was rather interest in getting work experience instead of learning again.
4.) Have more free time and space for me and my friends to enjoy.
5.) I am not ready to go to university. Cannot cope with the circumstances of being a student yet.
6.) If I am failing as a student (interrupt the study), I have had an apprenticeship at least to apply for a new job. It is better than nothing.
It just makes no sense to go to university just to get better chances for career, if no one knows what to become to. Sure, there are jobs which can be achieved by a study only (or where a degree is required for getting a certain position). If someone really wants to achieve these jobs, it is the only way. But if someone is doubting or hesitating with this way, the most students are interrupting before graduate. It is really worth it, if a student is convince to get pass it. Without the right attitude, this long and hard way is hardly to master.*
*
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