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When did the right-wing become so unpatriotic?

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The guy is a multi millionaire. He is a self publicist in the same way the Kardashians or Trump are. I doubt he believes much of the trash he comes out with, but sees it as a way of furthering his brand. Hell, there has been speculation in conspiracy theorist circles that Jones himself is a government plant meant to discredit them. Some operator.

Even if you want to view him in a positive light, he does nothing for governance or solving the alleged issues he brings out. How claiming no one died at Sandy Hook achieves anything I cannot see.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 21

Lollypop100

Original post by AlexanderHam

***I am going to post this separately under separate cover in the politics section***

Being patriotic is not always about being patriotic... you will have to follow this thorough.

We live in a world of occupation governments (ZOGs / BIZWOGs) - technically Zionist occupation government. Anyone pretending to say it notice the British Balfour Declaration 1917 between the British Government and the Zionist Federation of Great Britain or U.S. President links with AIPAC is very out of touch. These ZOGs are loosely known as globalists because they align to a world vision that was basically outlined by Clinton neocon advisers in 1997 in a document called Project for a New American Century. It creases a kind of uni-polar world, a single power structure.

In the Munich 2007 Security conference Putin came out using military arguments against against the uni-polar world - which are basically going back to individual country powers - and therefore patriotism.

Posted from TSR Mobile

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 22

MasterJack

They've always been unpatriotic to me, and for the balance I also include the left-wing in this description. Genuine patriots wouldn't need to be describing themselves as being left or right. Reality doesn't operate on simplistic binaries such as black or white, right or left. It's not the sole reason I view the right-wing as unpatriotic, but I see it as part of the equation. There are other factors too such as favouring isolationism over regional stability, xenophobia, jingoism, short termism, anti-intellectualism, etc.

Reply 23

AlexanderHam

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

You dole out so much crud to other users on here and you voted for Brexit!?

Attitudes like that are a big reason why Remain lost. The threats, the arrogant presumptions, the idea that it is simply unacceptable to look at the same set of facts and honestly come to a different conclusion.

The breathless, uncontrollable emotions Remainers are expressing following the vote are, frankly, pathetic. For so many of the tacky middle and lower-middle class, being "pro European" is a proxy for a sophistication and worldliness they will never possess. It allows them to feel worldly without ever having left the European continent (which really isn't that much better than an American who doesn't have a passport).

All of my really clever friends, the ones who work at the chancery bar, the ones who got first-class degrees at Oxford, the ones who clerk for the judge who is believed to probably be the smartest man in the country... they all voted Brexit. I'm entirely comfortable with my vote; it fundamentally comes down to democratic accountability. I do not believe it is appropriate to have laws made by a body the people of this country cannot vote out in an election. And I do not want to stay in a club where they threaten to kneecap you if you leave; if the only thing holding it together is "We can't give a good deal to the British because then others will want to leave", then you've already lost the debate.

I'm sorry but you voted for a thing which overwhelmingly is in favour and helps serve the political faction of the unpatriotic lot you described in the OP.

What a preposterous and hysterical comment. The fact that a certain policy outcome benefits a political group with whom you disagree does not mean you must oppose it no matter its merits;in fact doing so is crass and tribal. You remind me of the leftists who were opposing gay marriage in mid-2012, claiming it's "not a priority", out of a mix of personal bigotry and pique at seeing the Conservatives steal a march on them on a progressive issue. Grow up; the issue rises and falls on its own merits.

And yes, I will continue to give you crud where you advocate hard leftist and conspiracy crap.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 24

slaven

Original post by AlexanderHam

The title is somewhat unfair, I accept that. I'm not talking about all right-wingers; in fact, in the UK most of my conservative friends are extremely patriotic and much more sensible on defence and foreign policy issues than is the Labour Party at present.

But looking to the United States (and the UKIP crowd here), when did these people become so weak and unpatriotic? When did it become de rigeur to act like a Russian shill, to support bending over for Vlad Putin, to constantly talk your country down and say that it's pathetic and falling apart, to support groups like Wikileaks and repeat every brainless conspiracy theory that comes along?

When did this happen? I can understand this kind of mindset occurring on the left, but something happened in the last few years where people on the right started adopting an extremely pro-Russian, pro-Putin, anti-US/UK attitude. I believe the seed of this may lie with the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones; he was always quite pro-Putin because he views Putin as being "opposed to the New World Order". He believes the Russian policy of paying parents for each child they have is pro-life and a spanner in the works of the "New World Order's" plan to "exterminate 90% of the population". In short, people like Jones view Putin as being the most powerful leader who is opposed to the "globalist" conspiracy and that is comforting that they can look to that person as sort of fighting against the conspiracy from behind the scenes. I wonder if that mindset leaked over into the hard kipper right, and then into the more mainstream right? We can see how far the right has gone down this road when Diane James praises Putin as her political hero and Trump desperately flatters and sucks up to Putin, siding with him over the president of the United States.

I emphasise that this has nothing to do with Brexit, I (reluctantly) voted for Brexit myself. But I think that there is this nexus between the Brexit crowd and this conspiracy world / culture which has acted as the vector for the virus of brainless conspiracism (and the Putinophilia that seems to go with it)

You should first explain why liking Russia and Putin is anti-patriotic. It has no sence. Russia and USA (and its puppet UK) have more intereset in common. And the liberals should promote peace and friendship with RUssia. According to liberals and the left the West should hate Slavs and love blacks. Like Wikileaks showed Hillary is crazy enough to start a nuclear war.

This raise a second point. Why should the right-wing be in favour of their government which are openly anti-patriotic, which shills for hate of the white race and in favour of multiculturalism. That is why I wish the downfall of the US.

Reply 25

AlexanderHam

Original post by slaven

You should first explain why liking Russia and Putin is anti-patriotic. It has no sence.

It "has no sence"? Wanting to bend over for Putin is unpatriotic; Trump is supporting the interests of a foreign power that is hostile to his country. He supports that leader over his own president. He regularly defends Putin and Russia despite the fact Russia has attempted to undermine the American election to get its favoured candidate elected. That is an unforgivable attack on America. And don't you worry, Russia will pay for that when Clinton is elected. They made a big mistake making Clinton their enemy.

Russia likes to strut around like it's still Soviet times and it is a superpower. It's not; Russia is a shell, a stunted dwarf, compared to the Soviet Union. It will soon find out just how big the gap now is between their capabilities and those of the United States.

According to liberals and the left the West should hate Slavs and love blacks.

You sound like a Putinbot. You can barely express yourself clearly in English, you make those common mistakes that Russian speakers who can't speak English well make when they are posting on English-speaking forums. And now you're promoting bigotry and racism against black people. Pathetic. Although it is hilarious to see just how desperately Putinbots defend their kleptomaniac fascist-in-chief.

Putin and his shills have the most extraordinary sense of entitlement, the belief that they have the right to go and hack American politicians and try to manipulate its election. They have been allowed to behave this way because President Obama is a tolerant and peaceful man who has put up with this crap for years. Clinton won't do that. Putin is about to get his just desserts; I can't wait to see the NSA hacking the Russian government to release data and documents showing Putin's corruption. And I can't wait to see the screws tightened even further with sanctions; the rouble has been in freefall, the Russian military is creaking and rusty and a shadow of its former self. Russia is a second-rate power now, and it's going to find out what happens when you rouse the American eagle to anger.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 26

slaven

Original post by AlexanderHam

It "has no sence"? Wanting to bend over for Putin is unpatriotic;.

Again, how is this exactly unpatriotic? Russia and USA have numerous time been allies in the past. Russia supported the Union side in the Civil war and has been allied with the US in both world wars. I really do not see this treatorous element in supporting Russia and its government.

The same can also be said about your side. Why are you so unpatriotic and want that UK continues to be an American lapdog instead a sovereign nation?

"Trump is supporting the interests of a foreign power that is hostile to his country. He supports that leader over his own president. He regularly dattack on America."
Russia is not hostile to the US; Putin said numerous times he is not in favour of any war with the US. Even in his speech he is always refering to the USA as "western partners".

And why a good chunk of the population supports Putin over its own president is something Clinton and liberals have to think. The part that has always been over patriotic and anti-communists. Really, the progressives should really think what happened to them and wh is faulth because of it.

"And don't you worry, Russia will pay for that when Clinton is electedefends Putin and Russia despite the fact Russia has attempted to undermine the American election to get its favoured candidate elected. That is an unforgivable . They made a big mistake making Clinton their enemy."
Russia do not have to pay for anything as it is not Russia that is overthrowing regimes around the world like in Libya, Ukraine and now in Syria. If anything your policies have been disastrous and to the world Russia looks sane for tring preventing you destroying the world even more. What would happens if say Russia installs a government in Mexico or in Ireland?

And again where was the outcry of yours when Obongo was stiking his nose in the EU referendum? That was not his bussiness how the British people will vote. You only demonstrates your hypocricy.

"Russia likes to strut around like it's still Soviet times and it is a superpower. It's not; Russia is a shell, a stunted dwarf, compared to the Soviet Union. It will soon find out just how big the gap now is between their capabilities and those of the United States."
I agree that Russia is compared to the USSR only 30% of its former glory. But that are the blame of the russian progressives and left-wingers who destroyed the country in the 90s.

But I do not see a problem with this as Russians would love to be again relevant and the West desperately needs a corrector in foreign affairs. The same I would like for you Brits that your country be relevant again like in the time of Empire and can oppose the US.

"You sound like a Putinbot. You can barely express yourself clearly in English, you make those common mistakes that Russian speakers who can't speak English well make when they are posting on English-speaking forums."
Now calm down with your paranoa or at least go to a doctor. I am in favour of Russia and do not hide it as I believe the Russian policy is rational unlike the US side. A bot implies I am receiving money which is not true and I stated multiple times on this forum where do I come from,

"And now you're promoting bigotry and racism against black people. Pathetic. Although it is hilarious to see just how desperately Putinbots defend their kleptomaniac fascist-in-chief."
If loving Slavs and its culture means to dislike blacks than I admit am a proud black disliker and consider Africa barbaric. Putin is not a fascist as he promote ideas contrary to fascism. He actually tolerant to non-russian etnicities

"Putin and his shills have the most extraordinary sense of entitlement, the belief that they have the right to go and hack American politicians and try to manipulate its election. They have been allowed to behave this way because President Obama is a tolerant and peaceful man who has put up with this crap for years. Clinton won't do that. Putin is about to get his just desserts; I can't wait to see the NSA hacking the Russian government to release data and documents showing Putin's corruption. And I can't wait to see the screws tightened even further with sanctions; the rouble has been in freefall, the Russian military is creaking and rusty and a shadow of its former self. Russia is a second-rate power now, and it's going to find out what happens when you rouse the American eagle to anger."
Obama peacefull?? LOL you must be kidding. It was Obama who bombed Libya and now trying to the same to Assad and other countries. It was Obama that caused a war in Ukraine.

You are only buthurt because Russia is showing the world the dirty laughtery of your preferential candidate.

I would also not call the Russian millitary rusty as it is not quite the opposite. I am also sure the russian soldier has a greater morale than than the western sissies (cucks). Maybe enforce diversity quotas in the millitary as you do on universities. It would be a good idea that some Muhamed from Luton serves the army and fights for western values instead the racist white male. LOL

Reply 27

AlexanderHam

Original post by slaven

Your comment is basically unreadable. Try to work out how to use the quote function. On second thoughts, even the quote function won't save your post from being a babbling, incoherent, racist, pro-Russian screed which I have no interest in reading.

Reply 28

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by AlexanderHam

Attitudes like that are a big reason why Remain lost. The threats, the arrogant presumptions, the idea that it is simply unacceptable to look at the same set of facts and honestly come to a different conclusion.

I'm not even that fond of the EU. I seriously considered voting for Lexit. I just couldn't bring myself to endorse all the crappy political forces wound up with the Leave vote. You could. Or you agreed with it. You voted with Farage :puke:

Not only that I have seen you moaning about Corbyn's supposed secret Brexit desires. :lolwut:

Anyway. Unless you are part of the problem what are you gonna do about the pandoras box being opened by your Brexit?

Reply 29

AlexanderHam

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

I'm not even that fond of the EU. I seriously considered voting for Lexit. I just couldn't bring myself to endorse all the crappy political forces wound up with the Leave vote. You could. Or you agreed with it. You voted with Farage :puke:

I take it then that you opposed the gay marriage bill because Cameron voted for it? You really are a very flakey, superficial person. I've never seen a single post from you on this forum that was anything more than predictable, milquetoast and a recapitulation of something you'd read elsewhere; never seen you come out with anything resembling original insight.

That is to say, I'm really not that interested in what you have to say; fake vomit and sanctimony and all (and open declarations of "I'm so shallow that I base my political positions on whether or not it means I end up agreeing with someone I don't like").

Far easier just to add you to my ignore list. Byee :smile:

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 30

KimKallstrom

Original post by AlexanderHam

Attitudes like that are a big reason why Remain lost. The threats, the arrogant presumptions, the idea that it is simply unacceptable to look at the same set of facts and honestly come to a different conclusion.

You're wasting your breath here old chap. I've been telling these people this for years on here. In fact I said this almost word for word in another Brexit thread currently going on. But they simply don't get it. Their egos can't handle it.

As a remain voter it annoys me because all it would have taken is for these people to spend 2 minutes trying to understand the concerns of people they oppose so that they can construct a viable argument for the position. But they never do and look what happened. Their arrogance leaves them continuously oblivious to everything outside their own bubble. "These people disagree with me. Therefore they must be brainwashed, intellectually challenged, bigoted, ignorant........."

At least posters like FoS don't even attempt to hide this characteristic and their contempt for the people of this country but I was expecting some others to at least attempt to view the postmortem of their annihilation in order to prevent it happening again and again. But I was wrong to do so it seems,

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 31

Observatory

Original post by AlexanderHam

But looking to the United States (and the UKIP crowd here), when did these people become so weak and unpatriotic? When did it become de rigeur to act like a Russian shill, to support bending over for Vlad Putin, to constantly talk your country down and say that it's pathetic and falling apart, to support groups like Wikileaks and repeat every brainless conspiracy theory that comes along?
These sorts of stupid arguments pop up every time the left can give some contorted justification why a patriot should support doing something that plainly doesn't serve any British interest. Here you aren't even trying. Sure, Putin is a bad guy. No, he's not Hitler. He's an ordinary authoritarian in a world full of ordinary authoritarians, many on the left. If we push Putin out of Syria will the grass be greener in Hyde Park? Will Marmite be cheaper? At best there is no British interest at stake here. At worst, successfully defeating Russia would put in power groups that don't differ in important ways from al-Qaeda. Being opposed to this war does not necessarily make one pro-Russian, and being pro-Russian does not necessarily make one anti-British.

And don't say this isn't about Syria. Before Syria this was the left's stance on Russia:

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 32

AlexanderHam

Original post by KimKallstrom

You're wasting your breath here old chap. I've been telling these people this for years on here. In fact I said this almost word for word in another Brexit thread currently going on. But they simply don't get it. Their egos can't handle it.

Very well said. I'm basically a Blairite, a liberal interventionist, pro-free trade and not wholly averse to (sensible) immigration; "pro-Establishment" in the parlance of the nuts. The fact that Remain lost me is, frankly, astonishing. I was a relucant Remainer, but a Remainer nonetheless; I had huge concerns about democratic accountability, but I was willing to put them aside. But the arrogance of Juncker in particular, the threats, the conceit, the hubris... it simply confirmed in my eyes the fundamental undesirability of the UK remaining legally-subject to a commission, the president of whom we have very little influence over.

Remain could have won if Juncker had just been willing to give Cameron a half-decent deal, but he blew him off and insulted him, laughed at him and basically said, "We don't need to concede anything. Either take it as it is, or don't". He did this because he thought a Brexit vote was impossible, and it shows just how unaccountable these characters are (not to mention Juncker is a violent drunk, we have footage of him assaulting other EU leaders when he's had a few drinks). The fact that man is still president of the commission shows just how corrupt and passive the EU institutions can be.

Everything that has occurred since, with the histrionics and the words from Hollande and Tusk (and even Merkel, now) saying "Britain must pay a price" confirms the undesirability of this orgnisation, in my eyes. This article by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (a Remainer) sums it up quite well. If what is stopping us getting out is fear of the threats of the Germans and French, better to get out now while we still can.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/12/if-europe-insists-on-a-hard-brexit-so-be-it/

Fundamentally, I don't want to be part of an ever-closer union; I don't want tobe part of a European superstate. I know Europeans generally are quite keen on this, and more power to them; but as Churchill said, we are an island race. We are with Europe, but not of it. If the EU institutions and those running the Remain campaign, instead of engaging in this sickly and pathetic "Oh we are so European, we love Europe" displays and handing out EU flags at Waterloo Station (as if that is anything other than a display of self-absorbed, oblivious idiocy rather than something liable to convince anyone to vote Remain) actually engaged with the arguments rather than "Voting Brexit? Racist", the Remain campaign might have had a chance.

I really love the snarky old American retort, "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?". In this case, it's "If you're so smart, why did you lose?". As you can see, the arrogance is not justified based on results.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 33

Observatory

Original post by KimKallstrom

Them By Jon Ronson - a great book on what's essentially horse shoe theory - ie how extremists of various varieties like Abu Hamza, David Icke, Neo Nazis etc often believe in the same paranoid delusions as each other like the illuminati and shady elites controlling our lives through conspiracies etc- suggests otherwise. At one point he joined Alex Jones as he tried to sneak into Bohemian Grove (where once a year elites from different walks of life meet up for a frat party-like piss up) because he literally believed that Satanic worshiping and possibly sacrifices were going on there. I kid you not.
However they are all somewhat right. The world (at least a large part of it) is run by a coherent social group. This social group even has conspiratorial-seeming meetings. At some of these meetings people wear weird clothes and perform bizarre rituals, etc.

What they get wrong is that this social group, like all large social groups, is too difficult for anyone to really coordinate, that it is mostly self-directed, and that the meetings are largely futile attempts to herd the cats, rather than places where coherent decisions are made by a small group of people that are then enforced. The EU is the perfect example of this: it looks sounds, acts like, and basically is the vehicle of a relatively small and tight-knit group of conspirators. But the EU cannot make effective decisions in a short time, and it fails to do so even when it is plainly in its self-interest to do so. This means no one is really in charge.

What Jones and bin Laden had/have in common is that they agreed the world is much more orderly than it really is, that the elites are much better defined than they really are, and that elites have much more agency than they really do. But that doesn't mean elites don't exist at all or that their social group preferences don't influence society. They do.

The relevance of Russia is that Russia really does have an elite composed of a social group that is totally separate to that of the West. If you don't like what the Western elite is doing, it isn't totally crazy to support Russia as a foil. Where these people mainly go wrong is that they don't look very closely at what Russian elite culture actually says and thinks, instead projecting their own preferences onto Russia. This makes Russia look like a much more desirable alternative than it really is.

Another thing I would add that is that conspiracy theory-like views are pretty common elsewhere as well and some are very much better socially accepted than others. The common belief that businessmen can fix prices and wages is a conspiracy theory for instance: it's robustly contradicted by economic science, history, and just daily experience. Yet papers like The Guardian will publish hundreds of articles based on this premise every year and not lose any credibility for doing so. Conspiracy theorising is to a great extent just a part of how humans think about large groups. While most ideologies are based on something more rational at a very deep level, most of their supporters on the ground level are organised in large part around common belief in conspiracy theories.