Ched Evans cleared of rape in retrial
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Original post by unprinted
There are crimes where voluntary intoxication can be a mitigation, but rape and sexual assault generally are 'basic intent' crimes and you can't go 'I didn't have the mens rae, I was pissed' for those. See R v Woods (1982) 74 Cr App R 312 for what happened to someone who tried.
Ah right, the old basic intent / specific intent distinction; I should have paid closer attention in criminal law (most law students I've met seem to love criminal law. It was my worst subject and one I found least interesting; thus far land law has been my best subject).
Do you remember the case about the paedophile who lured the boy and molested him but he'd also taken valiums that lowered his inhibition and the threshold at which he would act? That is presumably runs along similar (not identical) lines; although he was extremely intoxicated, unless the act is a sort of physiological automata then all they need to do is to intend the act.
But with respect to basic intent (and the minimum requirement of recklessness), the mens rea of rape is distinct from the reasonable belief in s1(1)(c)? In other words, someone could possess the necessary basic intent but also possess a reasonable belief?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
Ah right, the old basic intent / specific intent distinction; I should have paid closer attention in criminal law (most law students I've met seem to love criminal law. It was my worst subject and one I found least interesting; thus far land law has been my best subject).
Do you remember the case about the paedophile who lured the boy and molested him but he'd also taken valiums that lowered his inhibition and the threshold at which he would act? That is presumably runs along similar (not identical) lines; although he was extremely intoxicated, unless the act is a sort of physiological automata then all they need to do is to intend the act.
But with respect to basic intent (and the minimum requirement of recklessness), the mens rea of rape is distinct from the reasonable belief in s1(1)(c)? In other words, someone could possess the necessary basic intent but also possess a reasonable belief?
Do you remember the case about the paedophile who lured the boy and molested him but he'd also taken valiums that lowered his inhibition and the threshold at which he would act? That is presumably runs along similar (not identical) lines; although he was extremely intoxicated, unless the act is a sort of physiological automata then all they need to do is to intend the act.
But with respect to basic intent (and the minimum requirement of recklessness), the mens rea of rape is distinct from the reasonable belief in s1(1)(c)? In other words, someone could possess the necessary basic intent but also possess a reasonable belief?
How can anyone like land law? It is the worst module ever.
Original post by joecphillips
How can anyone like land law? It is the worst module ever.
I'm a huge history buff; I love reading about English medieval history. I enjoy the legal elements of feudalism, how that ties in to economics, society, hierarchy. I like to research medieval land transactions and marriage contracts, how different families acquired estates, how manors were granted, how conditions were placed on the granting enfeoffments, etc. Consequent to all that I found land law quite stimulating
(edited 7 years ago)
As a matter of law, if a man and woman hook up on a one night stand. ,both well drunk and under the influence of alcohol, say twice the legal driving limit, next morning neither able to remember giving consent, who raped who and who sexually assaulted who?
Evans' family are taking legal action against 'Loose Women' for comments made on the show.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-37696222
The show should be pulled, just seems like an excuse to ***** and gossip like a bunch of leftist harpies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-37696222
The show should be pulled, just seems like an excuse to ***** and gossip like a bunch of leftist harpies.
Original post by caravaggio2
As a matter of law, if a man and woman hook up on a one night stand. ,both well drunk and under the influence of alcohol, say twice the legal driving limit, next morning neither able to remember giving consent, who raped who and who sexually assaulted who?
If both were too drunk to consent (a grey line at best) then in theory the man is the rapist and the woman committed sexual assault but in reality the woman would never be convicted.
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Original post by Underscore__
If both were too drunk to consent (a grey line at best) then in theory the man is the rapist and the woman committed sexual assault but in reality the woman would never be convicted.
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Er.....well..... that sounds fair enough doesnt it?
Original post by Underscore__
If both were too drunk to consent (a grey line at best) then in theory the man is the rapist and the woman committed sexual assault but in reality the woman would never be convicted.
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Are you saying that a woman who is drugged almost senseless by a predator and then raped is committing a sexual assault?
Original post by Underscore__
I've been very drunk yet still managed lie my way through things and you have to question a hotel manager that would give somebody a room key despite not being authorised by the person who checked in.
The room was booked in Evans' name, so he wasn't just a random person asking for the key.
Original post by Underscore__
If both were too drunk to consent (a grey line at best) then in theory the man is the rapist and the woman committed sexual assault but in reality the woman would never be convicted.
Police ask both 'what happened?'
Her: 'Dunno, I was drunk.'
Him: 'Dunno, I was drunk.'
Neither of them is going to be charged with anything.
Original post by Dodgypirate
Evans' family are taking legal action against 'Loose Women' for comments made on the show.
To save anyone bothering, the link has nothing to do with this.
He's also supposed to be suing for wrongful imprisonment (good luck with that one, given that there's no way he's been proven innocent beyond a reasonable doubt) and his first set of lawyers. Again, good luck with that one. I'm wondering what they could have done that was wrong.
Not saying 'Well, if you put up a substantial reward, you might get someone saying that they'd also shagged her, especially if you make it clear what they have to say...'?
The Sun's lawyers will have looked very closely at Saturday's 'GUILTY' front page before publication. They will probably have said that, amongst other things, he doesn't have much of a reputation he can sue to protect.
Original post by AlexanderHam
But with respect to basic intent (and the minimum requirement of recklessness), the mens rea of rape is distinct from the reasonable belief in s1(1)(c)? In other words, someone could possess the necessary basic intent but also possess a reasonable belief?
You mean 'I wanted to rape them, and they didn't consent, but I thought they did!'
It'd be an.. interesting defence to try.
Original post by Underscore__
This case perfectly encapsulates how non-existence 'rape-culture' is. If rape culture was as bad a feminists claim then the general reaction from the public would have been to slut shame the girl and sympathise with Ched after the first trial (didn't happen) but even after he's found not guilty people are still referring to the girl as the victim and Ched will still be hated by lots of people.
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Err go on twitter and youll find hundreds of tweets calling her a **** etc and even threatening her... some of the comments made have been horrible, towards both of them. but she has been slut shamed, during both trials
Original post by Chocolatesoup
Err go on twitter and youll find hundreds of tweets calling her a **** etc and even threatening her... some of the comments made have been horrible, towards both of them. but she has been slut shamed, during both trials
Hundreds of people (out of population of tens of millions) show a culture exists? What about the mass media and celebrities who continue to slam him? People are so perturbed by rape that death threats were made to a football team for trying to sign him after he'd served his sentence. People are so against rapist they were trying to prevent someone from getting on with their life after serving their sentence.
Original post by unprinted
The room was booked in Evans' name, so he wasn't just a random person asking for the key.
Then you have to question what kind of hotel manager lets someone else check in.
Original post by unprinted
Police ask both 'what happened?'
Her: 'Dunno, I was drunk.'
Him: 'Dunno, I was drunk.'
Neither of them is going to be charged with anything.
Her: 'Dunno, I was drunk.'
Him: 'Dunno, I was drunk.'
Neither of them is going to be charged with anything.
In the majority of cases yes but the chances of a woman being convicted of sexual assault for having sex with a man who was blind drunk are next to none, I don't know of it ever happening.
Original post by Good bloke
Are you saying that a woman who is drugged almost senseless by a predator and then raped is committing a sexual assault?
Not really sure where you inferred that from?
Original post by caravaggio2
Er.....well..... that sounds fair enough doesnt it?
Welcome to the justice system of England and Wales
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(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Underscore__
Not really sure where you inferred that from?
Not really sure where you inferred that from?
Well, you said that she would be committing an assault if she were raped while too drunk to consent. Being drugged leaves her potentially in the same position, in terms of mental capacity, as she would be in if she were too drunk to consent.
Original post by Underscore__
Hundreds of people (out of population of tens of millions) show a culture exists? What about the mass media and celebrities who continue to slam him? People are so perturbed by rape that death threats were made to a football team for trying to sign him after he'd served his sentence. People are so against rapist they were trying to prevent someone from getting on with their life after serving their sentence.
where did I say it shows a culture exists? I also said BOTH of them received abuse/threats etc, did you even read my reply.....
Original post by Chocolatesoup
where did I say it shows a culture exists? I also said BOTH of them received abuse/threats etc, did you even read my reply.....
If you don't believe rape culture exists why are you arguing against me saying it doesn't? The mainstream reaction has and still is against Ched Evans as shown by the front page of The Sun on Saturday (the most widely read newspaper in the U.K.)
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Original post by Underscore__
If rape culture was as bad a feminists claim then the general reaction from the public would have been to slut shame the girl and sympathise with Ched after the first trial (didn't happen) but even after he's found not guilty people are still referring to the girl as the victim and Ched will still be hated by lots of people.
If you don't believe rape culture exists why are you arguing against me saying it doesn't? The mainstream reaction has and still is against Ched Evans as shown by the front page of The Sun on Saturday (the most widely read newspaper in the U.K.)
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If rape culture was as bad a feminists claim then the general reaction from the public would have been to slut shame the girl and sympathise with Ched after the first trial (didn't happen) but even after he's found not guilty people are still referring to the girl as the victim and Ched will still be hated by lots of people.
If you don't believe rape culture exists why are you arguing against me saying it doesn't? The mainstream reaction has and still is against Ched Evans as shown by the front page of The Sun on Saturday (the most widely read newspaper in the U.K.)
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I do believe a rape culture exists, however you argued that no one has sl ut shamed her, which they have, just as much as he has been attacked too (I don't believe either should be abused or threatened). A lot of people do symapthise with him as well, just like how people sympathise with her. Opinion is divided however to say that she hasn't been sl ut shamed at all is a silly argument, she clearly has. I'll even copy and past some quotes off twitter if you can't be arsed to look yourself (and why would you when you dont think she has been given abuse)...
also some newspapers as part of the mainstream media isnt the whole mainstream reaction, just like you said, a few opinions doesnt equal the whole view.
some tweets for you to read:
https://twitter.com/cam_mcclean1690/status/788772943417470981
https://twitter.com/zoeharrison7/status/787172592235020288
https://twitter.com/FutbolAndrew/status/786960092709126144
https://twitter.com/davey1122331/status/786953965049118720
https://twitter.com/grahamsy97/status/786940609173094400
https://twitter.com/search?q=ched%20evans%20slut&src=typd
But still wanna argue she hasnt been sl ut shamed?
The idea of a rape culture is highly subjective because I've only heard it used to refer to cases involving celebrities, and in fact not even all celebrities. It literally only applies to sportsmen. The vast number of crimes like these committed by normal everyday folk are ignored by the rape culture brigade, and I'm fairly sure it's not just those, the BBC sex offenders didn't get treatment as harsh as Ched Evans from the media, even though: 1) there was no doubt that they were guilty 2) what they did was much worse than what Evans did. So we should call this 'rape culture' what it actually is, the cult of the celebrity.
Besides, if a rape culture existed in the general population (a demographic where the mainstream media largely ignores crime), then why have the estimates of all sexual crimes been plummeting for the last 10 years? You can talk about slut shaming and rape culture as much as you like, but something has obviously been going on behind the scenes to drive the rates of these crimes in the opposite direction to what we're being told.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/files/2015/02/VAWgraph.png
Besides, if a rape culture existed in the general population (a demographic where the mainstream media largely ignores crime), then why have the estimates of all sexual crimes been plummeting for the last 10 years? You can talk about slut shaming and rape culture as much as you like, but something has obviously been going on behind the scenes to drive the rates of these crimes in the opposite direction to what we're being told.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/files/2015/02/VAWgraph.png
Original post by dtin
The idea of a rape culture is highly subjective because I've only heard it used to refer to cases involving celebrities, and in fact not even all celebrities. It literally only applies to sportsmen. The vast number of crimes like these committed by normal everyday folk are ignored by the rape culture brigade, and I'm fairly sure it's not just those, the BBC sex offenders didn't get treatment as harsh as Ched Evans from the media, even though: 1) there was no doubt that they were guilty 2) what they did was much worse than what Evans did. So we should call this 'rape culture' what it actually is, the cult of the celebrity.
Besides, if a rape culture existed in the general population (a demographic where the mainstream media largely ignores crime), then why have the estimates of all sexual crimes been plummeting for the last 10 years? You can talk about slut shaming and rape culture as much as you like, but something has obviously been going on behind the scenes to drive the rates of these crimes in the opposite direction to what we're being told.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/files/2015/02/VAWgraph.png
Besides, if a rape culture existed in the general population (a demographic where the mainstream media largely ignores crime), then why have the estimates of all sexual crimes been plummeting for the last 10 years? You can talk about slut shaming and rape culture as much as you like, but something has obviously been going on behind the scenes to drive the rates of these crimes in the opposite direction to what we're being told.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/files/2015/02/VAWgraph.png
I'm not going to argue about whether or not such a culture exists.
What I will say however is that true stats about sexual assault and rape are hard to come by. When people think of rape/sexual assault they tend to think of a stranger in a club or a dark alley. However, the reality is that most rapes and sexual assaults are carried out by people who know the victim.
Often this can be in marriages, or with ex partners, or with friends or even sometimes family. Many women and men who have been coerced into sex have commented about the sheer trauma and embarrassment that it has caused them. It makes them question their sexuality, it makes them feel dirty and disgusting. If they know the person, it makes them very dissuaded from reporting it.
If you are a man who has been raped by another man, it can make you feel humiliated about your sexuality, with many feeling ashamed. If you are a man who is sexually assaulted by a woman, again it can make you fee embarrassed and weak.
If you're a woman who knows or cares for the man personally who has raped them, it's incredibly difficult for them to report them. Many just want to forget it.
I'm not getting into whether or not rape culture exists, but what we do know is that both men and women who are victims of rape and sexual assault can be very reluctant to report it and it makes gaining accurate data difficult.
Original post by Chocolatesoup
I do believe a rape culture exists, however you argued that no one has sl ut shamed her, which they have, just as much as he has been attacked too (I don't believe either should be abused or threatened). A lot of people do symapthise with him as well, just like how people sympathise with her. Opinion is divided however to say that she hasn't been sl ut shamed at all is a silly argument, she clearly has. I'll even copy and past some quotes off twitter if you can't be arsed to look yourself (and why would you when you dont think she has been given abuse)...
also some newspapers as part of the mainstream media isnt the whole mainstream reaction, just like you said, a few opinions doesnt equal the whole view.
some tweets for you to read:
https://twitter.com/cam_mcclean1690/status/788772943417470981
https://twitter.com/zoeharrison7/status/787172592235020288
https://twitter.com/FutbolAndrew/status/786960092709126144
https://twitter.com/davey1122331/status/786953965049118720
https://twitter.com/grahamsy97/status/786940609173094400
https://twitter.com/search?q=ched%20evans%20slut&src=typd
But still wanna argue she hasnt been sl ut shamed?
also some newspapers as part of the mainstream media isnt the whole mainstream reaction, just like you said, a few opinions doesnt equal the whole view.
some tweets for you to read:
https://twitter.com/cam_mcclean1690/status/788772943417470981
https://twitter.com/zoeharrison7/status/787172592235020288
https://twitter.com/FutbolAndrew/status/786960092709126144
https://twitter.com/davey1122331/status/786953965049118720
https://twitter.com/grahamsy97/status/786940609173094400
https://twitter.com/search?q=ched%20evans%20slut&src=typd
But still wanna argue she hasnt been sl ut shamed?
Where did I say she hadn't been slut shamed? If you read what I actually said you'll see I said 'the general reaction would have been to slut shame'. This clearly hasn't been the case as the slut shaming has been confined to a few morons on Twitter. Even after being found guilty the most read newspaper in the country is still condemning Evans. The scale of negativity Ched Evans has received is so much larger, it's been from celebrities and national newspapers not just some idiot nobodies on Twitter
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