How has the left become associated with the elite and the right with the common man??
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Original post by MagicNMedicine
Over to you Theresa May, I hope you can deliver this else the working class anger that came out against the metropolitan elite in the referendum, is going to be targeted against the Conservatives.
Over to you Theresa May, I hope you can deliver this else the working class anger that came out against the metropolitan elite in the referendum, is going to be targeted against the Conservatives.
No it won't, it will be targeted against immigrants.
Original post by Bornblue
I don't want unlimited spending. I want sensible and targeted spending on fiscal multipliers that will make us money and set us up well if we encounter recession.
For every £1 we spend on housing, our economy gains £2.50 in the long term. With interest rates being so low, we should be borrowing sensibly and investing in public infrastructure projects that will provide a long term boost to the economy.
Also this is key, we have an ageing population which places more strain on our public services. We need more working age immigrants who pay taxes and take little from public services to help address this problem.
My problem with you is that you claim to care about public services and the NHS and housing and wages yet you NEVER blame out government's right wing economic approach for exasperating such issues. Instead you blame immigrants who have very little effect on the aforementioned issues.
You said the left don't talk about issues the working man face but the left talks so much amour housing, wages, cost of living, NHS, public services etc. Unlike the right though they do not lazily and incorrectly blame immigration for these issues.
The political right only ever seems to care about public services when it comes to immigration. Yet when oh the government massively cites funding to public services they say nothing.
For every £1 we spend on housing, our economy gains £2.50 in the long term. With interest rates being so low, we should be borrowing sensibly and investing in public infrastructure projects that will provide a long term boost to the economy.
Also this is key, we have an ageing population which places more strain on our public services. We need more working age immigrants who pay taxes and take little from public services to help address this problem.
My problem with you is that you claim to care about public services and the NHS and housing and wages yet you NEVER blame out government's right wing economic approach for exasperating such issues. Instead you blame immigrants who have very little effect on the aforementioned issues.
You said the left don't talk about issues the working man face but the left talks so much amour housing, wages, cost of living, NHS, public services etc. Unlike the right though they do not lazily and incorrectly blame immigration for these issues.
The political right only ever seems to care about public services when it comes to immigration. Yet when oh the government massively cites funding to public services they say nothing.
You said these issues were 'hugely complex and multi layered' is one of the layers immigration?
You seem to do a lot of attacking other people and what they believe while deflecting and ignoring anything asked of you in return, so I've been forced to ask again.
Original post by joecphillips
You said these issues were 'hugely complex and multi layered' is one of the layers immigration?
You seem to do a lot of attacking other people and what they believe while deflecting and ignoring anything asked of you in return, so I've been forced to ask again.
You seem to do a lot of attacking other people and what they believe while deflecting and ignoring anything asked of you in return, so I've been forced to ask again.
I won't deny that immigration has some impact, but it isn't far from the main cause.
Take housing for example. The main reason for the housing crisis is. Or immigration but successive governments refusals to replace the council housing stock that was sold off decades ago. Or how about the fact we allow wealthy business to buy 300,000 properties in london and keep them empty to raise house prices in the area, what does that have to do with immigration?
I personally do not think that immigrants should be able to claim benefits until they have been paying tax for ten years.
There is however such a disproportionate focus on immigration and next to no focus on the far bigger causes of the issues we face.
Original post by 99_Problems
We are living in some messed up times that the left is now the mouthpiece of the 1%/elite/establishment/Global corporations and the right (conservatives/UKIP/Brexit/Trump) are now the voice of the common man.
It's like some kind of alternate universe. How the hell did this happen?
We need to repair the image of the left ASAP.
It's like some kind of alternate universe. How the hell did this happen?
We need to repair the image of the left ASAP.
Quite simply the left is perceived as not giving a crap about anybody outside London and of looking down on the ordinary man and their concerns. They are perceived as being unpatriotic and sneering at what they see as racists while telling the working classes that they should embrace diversity and less cohesive communities this has created.
Original post by Rakas21
Quite simply the left is perceived as not giving a crap about anybody outside London and of looking down on the ordinary man and their concerns. They are perceived as being unpatriotic and sneering at what they see as racists while telling the working classes that they should embrace diversity and less cohesive communities this has created.
The left do speak a lot about working man issues. They speak an awful lot about the housing crisis, about low wages, about insecure jobs, about restrictive union laws, about the underfunding of public services.
It's just that unlike the right they don't take the easy and wrong way out by blaming this all on immigration.
Original post by Jasaron
Well, the Left is being seen as a bunch of scruffy intellectuals from North London, who read Marx in coffee shops and know all of the words to the Internationale. This is, in some part, because of the increasing importance of Corbyn in the Labour movement, and the caricature he's brought with him.
Interestingly, the stereotypes of both Corbyn and Trump supporters are both suggested by stats to be almost completely wrong. And I don't just mean they're too simplistic, I mean they're often diametrically opposed to the reality.There's a popular stereotype of Corbyn supporters as middle-class students from London, yet the Labour leadership polls in fact suggested that all three demographic components of that election were less pro-Corbyn than the Labour membership as a whole. Indeed, for all the talk about Corbyn and students, 18-24s were the only age demographic to vote for Owen Smith! Corbyn voters were, in fact, compared to the Labour membership as a whole, more likely to be between 25 and 59 years old (he didn't do well with over-60s), from the North or Midlands, female, working class and (relatively speaking - there weren't many Brexit voting Labour members to start with) more likely to have voted Brexit.
Trump supporters, by contrast, are stereotyped as working class white people badly affected by globalised trade and immigration. Actual studies, however, found them to be richer than the average white American (indeed, across all candidates, those voting in GOP primaries were wealthier than those voting in Democrat ones), less likely to be unemployed, and relatively less affected by immigration or foreign exports.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Rakas21
Quite simply the left is perceived as not giving a crap about anybody outside London and of looking down on the ordinary man and their concerns. They are perceived as being unpatriotic and sneering at what they see as racists while telling the working classes that they should embrace diversity and less cohesive communities this has created.
Do you think the right listens to the ordinary man and their concerns, or does it really look down on them and just tries to tactically manouevre them away from the left to get their votes?
Do you think the right believes that wages are too low and ordinary working people should get better access to housing and improved public services?
Or does it think that ordinary working people should learn to live within their means and not expect the state to provide for them, and accept that there is inequality and if it means that the middle class educated metropolitan elite have more wealth and power than them its because they deserve it and it's not the state's responsibility to try to intervene in terms of wealth distribution.
Original post by Jasaron
Well, the Left is being seen as a bunch of scruffy intellectuals from North London, who read Marx in coffee shops and know all of the words to the Internationale. This is, in some part, because of the increasing importance of Corbyn in the Labour movement, and the caricature he's brought with him.
It was before Corbyn the right took off. Trump had loads of momentum before he was elected and UKIP got more votes than the Lib Dems and the Greens combined, which shows that that is an unfair stick to beat him with.
That being said, I think the biggest issue is immigration. The Left (namely Labour) is pro-immigration to its very core. The working class, on the other hand, is increasingly anti-immigration. So the party is at a crossroads. If it doesn't take a tougher stance on immigration, I can see it being in opposition for a long time. If it does take said stance, it will lose all of its current support. It's stuck between a rock and a hard place, and this makes me very sad.
There's a middle ground to be found, I think D Milliband or Jarvis could have found it and perhaps even won last year.
Especially since UKIP has crumbled in Farage's absence it might be easier to get the current UKIP'ers and old New Labour folk back on board. At this point Corbyn is DEFINITELY going to be the leader going into the next election, so they might as well throw their support behind him for now and focus on 2023 or whenever the following election is.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
Do you think the right listens to the ordinary man and their concerns, or does it really look down on them and just tries to tactically manouevre them away from the left to get their votes?
Do you think the right believes that wages are too low and ordinary working people should get better access to housing and improved public services?
Or does it think that ordinary working people should learn to live within their means and not expect the state to provide for them, and accept that there is inequality and if it means that the middle class educated metropolitan elite have more wealth and power than them its because they deserve it and it's not the state's responsibility to try to intervene in terms of wealth distribution.
Do you think the right believes that wages are too low and ordinary working people should get better access to housing and improved public services?
Or does it think that ordinary working people should learn to live within their means and not expect the state to provide for them, and accept that there is inequality and if it means that the middle class educated metropolitan elite have more wealth and power than them its because they deserve it and it's not the state's responsibility to try to intervene in terms of wealth distribution.
I definitely think that there is a breed of aristocratic shire Tory who believes that the poor should know their place however i'd say that the current government and most Tory voters lean more towards believing in aspiration and so it's a genuine concern for the most part.
Most Tories do want higher wages and believe in a property owning democracy (a number of us worship Thatcher for the Right To Buy). I'd agree that for most Tories public services are a drain on the nations taxes.
None of that is incomparable with caring about the citizens of a nation. The premise of most Tories is that they believe in allowing equal opportunity, we are simply unconcerned about equality of outcome.
..
I think you went off on a bit of a tangent somewhat. Nobody really on an economic basis looks down on the poor on either side, it's British culture that the Islington set despises and on that, the right are definitely on the side of native Brits.
Original post by Rakas21
it's British culture that the Islington set despises and on that, the right are definitely on the side of native Brits.
What do you mean by British culture and what is your evidence of people in the Islington set despising it?
Traditional English cooking?
Pubs and real ale?
Good manners and a sense of fair play?
Belief in democratic values like free press, right to fair trial?
Cricket, football etc?
Original post by MagicNMedicine
What do you mean by British culture and what is your evidence of people in the Islington set despising it?
Traditional English cooking?
Pubs and real ale?
Good manners and a sense of fair play?
Belief in democratic values like free press, right to fair trial?
Cricket, football etc?
Traditional English cooking?
Pubs and real ale?
Good manners and a sense of fair play?
Belief in democratic values like free press, right to fair trial?
Cricket, football etc?
Patriotism, opposing immigration, the monarchy, being less socially progressive.
The Islington set (Corbyn et all..) believe the natives to be ignorant and racist.
Original post by Rakas21
Patriotism, opposing immigration, the monarchy, being less socially progressive.
The Islington set (Corbyn et all..) believe the natives to be ignorant and racist.
The Islington set (Corbyn et all..) believe the natives to be ignorant and racist.
So your definition of British culture is opposing immigration and being less socially progressive?
These might be your personal values but these aren't cornerstones of British culture.
Also have you got any actual evidence of the Islington set hating British culture like you say, or is your evidence just an assertion you have made up that "they believe the natives to be ignorant and racist" because you haven't actually got anything substantial.
Original post by Rakas21
I definitely think that there is a breed of aristocratic shire Tory who believes that the poor should know their place however i'd say that the current government and most Tory voters lean more towards believing in aspiration and so it's a genuine concern for the most part.
Most Tories do want higher wages and believe in a property owning democracy (a number of us worship Thatcher for the Right To Buy). I'd agree that for most Tories public services are a drain on the nations taxes.
None of that is incomparable with caring about the citizens of a nation. The premise of most Tories is that they believe in allowing equal opportunity, we are simply unconcerned about equality of outcome.
..
I think you went off on a bit of a tangent somewhat. Nobody really on an economic basis looks down on the poor on either side, it's British culture that the Islington set despises and on that, the right are definitely on the side of native Brits.
Most Tories do want higher wages and believe in a property owning democracy (a number of us worship Thatcher for the Right To Buy). I'd agree that for most Tories public services are a drain on the nations taxes.
None of that is incomparable with caring about the citizens of a nation. The premise of most Tories is that they believe in allowing equal opportunity, we are simply unconcerned about equality of outcome.
..
I think you went off on a bit of a tangent somewhat. Nobody really on an economic basis looks down on the poor on either side, it's British culture that the Islington set despises and on that, the right are definitely on the side of native Brits.
Right to buy played a massive part in creating the housing crisis today.
Many of the properties which were sold under rtb are now owned by wealthy private landlords who fleece poorer individuals for rent.
It did not create a property owning democracy, it just passed our social housing into the hands of predatory landlords eventually.
In the housing association I work for, over half our leasehold properties which were sold are now owned by private landlords- they are not owned by poorer individuals.
Not to mention our governments failure to replenish the stock.
Your property owning democracy nonsense simply gives social housing to wealthy landlords who are then the recipients of tax payer housing benefits.
Now peopl in London have a 50 year waiting list for a council house. Great policy.
It's a scam and you know it is. You are putting ideology ahead of evidence.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Rakas21
Patriotism, opposing immigration, the monarchy, being less socially progressive.
You'd make a good regressive Muslim in the middle east.
Original post by Rakas21
Quite simply the left is perceived as not giving a crap about anybody outside London and of looking down on the ordinary man and their concerns.
The right propaganda and it's media certainly do there best to ensure this.
perceived =/= true
Original post by Rakas21
Most Tories do want higher wages and believe in a property owning democracy
Most Tories do want higher wages and believe in a property owning democracy
So then why are they doing such a piss poor job of it?
I want to own a house one day, preferably not have to be a mortgage slave for life. Why the **** would I vote for the Tories?
Original post by Diego Costa
There's a middle ground to be found, I think D Milliband or Jarvis could have found it and perhaps even won last year.
There's a middle ground to be found, I think D Milliband or Jarvis could have found it and perhaps even won last year.
The middle ground is UKIP land now. Sorry.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Bornblue
Right to buy played a massive part in creating the housing crisis today.
Many of the properties which were sold under rtb are now owned by wealthy private landlords who fleece poorer individuals for rent.
It did not create a property owning democracy, it just passed our social housing into the hands of predatory landlords eventually.
In the housing association I work for, over half our leasehold properties which were sold are now owned by private landlords- they are not owned by poorer individuals.
Not to mention our governments failure to replenish the stock.
Your property owning democracy nonsense simply gives social housing to wealthy landlords who are then the recipients of tax payer housing benefits.
Now peopl in London have a 50 year waiting list for a council house. Great policy.
It's a scam and you know it is. You are putting ideology ahead of evidence.
Many of the properties which were sold under rtb are now owned by wealthy private landlords who fleece poorer individuals for rent.
It did not create a property owning democracy, it just passed our social housing into the hands of predatory landlords eventually.
In the housing association I work for, over half our leasehold properties which were sold are now owned by private landlords- they are not owned by poorer individuals.
Not to mention our governments failure to replenish the stock.
Your property owning democracy nonsense simply gives social housing to wealthy landlords who are then the recipients of tax payer housing benefits.
Now peopl in London have a 50 year waiting list for a council house. Great policy.
It's a scam and you know it is. You are putting ideology ahead of evidence.
Given that the largest take-up in the Right To Buy occurred in the 80's and 90's that's not a shock. Those people have experienced 20-30 years of absurd house price increases and/or may well have moved. The fact that they are not owner-occupied is insufficient evidence to draw a conclusion.
This is where i believe the government failed, in not allowing their replacement. Under the current planning and tax system it is simply not plausible for the private sector to meet demand and therefore we have seen supply fall. That however is an argument for engaging in a House Building programme, not an argument for scrapping the Right To Buy.
Not so. I will admit there's a slight element of self interest though. If i can get ~£60k then it's very possible i could buy my parents council house and subject to a few legal niggles (they'd have to transfer it to me after 10 years) i'd then have my own home and ~£110k property before improvements.
Can you think of any government policy that will increase my personal wealth faster than that?
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
You'd make a good regressive Muslim in the middle east.
I'm not sure you've been reading my posts these years.
I condemn the Arab world for not valuing liberty and and i want net immigration to remain at ~300,000 (though i'd change the makeup).
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
So then why are they doing such a piss poor job of it?
I want to own a house one day, preferably not have to be a mortgage slave for life. Why the **** would I vote for the Tories?
The middle ground is UKIP land now. Sorry.
So then why are they doing such a piss poor job of it?
I want to own a house one day, preferably not have to be a mortgage slave for life. Why the **** would I vote for the Tories?
The middle ground is UKIP land now. Sorry.
Because..
1) The planning and tax system make it costly and lengthy to build large developments
2) Government has wrongly for the past 30 years believed that the market alone can satisfy demand. We need to take a leaf from MacMillian and then allow the Right To Buy on those homes.
Believe it or not but i want the same, i have no intention of paying a mortgage for more than a decade. Ultimately because at the last election we were offered a choice between a £5k tax cut from Miliband on housing or a ~20% cut from the Tories and the starter homes.
There are a few things that I'd like to say to contribute to this,
I'm a working class lad, a basic rate tax payer, not a homeowner and living in Dagenham. I, like most people in my area voted to leave the european union. Dagenham is also a highly labour area with Maggie Hodge being elected MP for Barking over and over again.
There's a lot similar with Dagenham and other parts of the country that globalism has seen left behind, these places have faced underinvestment for ages, and we've all had these politicians telling us how great our life has been inside the EU and we're looking at them like "what the cuck-a-doodle-doo are you on about?".
I had my reasons for voting Brexit, immigration was a key one, if net migration is above 300,000 and we're not building 150,000 homes a year, then how are we going to solve the housing crisis? Migration HAS to be controlled, and anyone who says otherwise needs to get out of their little bubble of naivety. For people in areas like my own, leaving the single market is a small price to pay for ensuring that their kids and grandkids have a decent shot in life. There is also the claim going around that we didn't know what we voted for, well guess what, we did. It's the political class constantly patronising the people, and it's mostly the left doing this, I haven't once heard Teresa May tell people that they didn't know what they were voting for.
As for the "soft-brexit" and "hard brexit" fiasco we see the same thing. Let me ask you now, if Scotland had voted for independence would they have just got devo-max instead?
The only argument that you can use to justify a "soft-brexit" is that it would appease the remainers. However, if you look at the fptp results for brexit won by a landslide so good luck getting elected on a "soft-brexit" platform.
I'm a working class lad, a basic rate tax payer, not a homeowner and living in Dagenham. I, like most people in my area voted to leave the european union. Dagenham is also a highly labour area with Maggie Hodge being elected MP for Barking over and over again.
There's a lot similar with Dagenham and other parts of the country that globalism has seen left behind, these places have faced underinvestment for ages, and we've all had these politicians telling us how great our life has been inside the EU and we're looking at them like "what the cuck-a-doodle-doo are you on about?".
I had my reasons for voting Brexit, immigration was a key one, if net migration is above 300,000 and we're not building 150,000 homes a year, then how are we going to solve the housing crisis? Migration HAS to be controlled, and anyone who says otherwise needs to get out of their little bubble of naivety. For people in areas like my own, leaving the single market is a small price to pay for ensuring that their kids and grandkids have a decent shot in life. There is also the claim going around that we didn't know what we voted for, well guess what, we did. It's the political class constantly patronising the people, and it's mostly the left doing this, I haven't once heard Teresa May tell people that they didn't know what they were voting for.
As for the "soft-brexit" and "hard brexit" fiasco we see the same thing. Let me ask you now, if Scotland had voted for independence would they have just got devo-max instead?
The only argument that you can use to justify a "soft-brexit" is that it would appease the remainers. However, if you look at the fptp results for brexit won by a landslide so good luck getting elected on a "soft-brexit" platform.
Also, taxes!
There are all of these young people and people who haven't had a job or a real job telling people that their taxes have to be raised. I'm sorry but I already pay about a quarter of my income in tax and if I had that in my pocket then I could afford to do a whole lot more. I don't really mind paying tax in all honesty, I mind about what my tax money is being spent on and for too long it hasn't been spent on housing, until now.
There are all of these young people and people who haven't had a job or a real job telling people that their taxes have to be raised. I'm sorry but I already pay about a quarter of my income in tax and if I had that in my pocket then I could afford to do a whole lot more. I don't really mind paying tax in all honesty, I mind about what my tax money is being spent on and for too long it hasn't been spent on housing, until now.
Original post by Lime-man
As for the "soft-brexit" and "hard brexit" fiasco we see the same thing. Let me ask you now, if Scotland had voted for independence would they have just got devo-max instead?
I love this!
Very good points you make there. It's funny how the people who are the most supportive of uncontrolled immigration are the same ones who live in posh, privately-owned homes and have highly-paid jobs. Of course they can afford to be supportive. They don't exactly have much to lose from supporting it.
The answer to this is all really very obvious, the left (and the right) have become too focused on winning elections just for the sake of of it. They have become convinced that there is precisely 1 way to win an eleection, mainly by appealing only the 30% of the electorate in the centre.
The left needs to start offering compelling ideas other than 'Capitalism, but less so', because a) such a position does not exist, b) everyone is sick and tired of hearing about it and c) it quite demonstrably has been awful for normal people.
The left needs to start offering compelling ideas other than 'Capitalism, but less so', because a) such a position does not exist, b) everyone is sick and tired of hearing about it and c) it quite demonstrably has been awful for normal people.
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